Is titling / breed surveying a GSD really useless? - Page 24

Aaaand how old are these breeds again? Considerably older than the GSD.

And how many generations of the gsd has been 'proven' through Titles before being bred ?....my Smooths were more than 100 years of show dogs and mostly show champions. That would be before the gsd was a breed. Show dogs are pampered and not put to ground risking being lost underground. These dogs were NOT worked as terriers.
The gsd is only about a century old. That would mean that the gsd has been consistently 'tested' titled and breed surveyed during the time the Smooths in my dogs' ped were not even used as terriers.
Yet my Smooths were still able to do the job the breed was meant for. So explain to me why the gsd is in danger of not being a gsd if they are not 'Titled' every single generation. Far as I can see, the gsd is only breed that both dogs MUST be titled and breed surveyed before bred....Why is the gsd so delecate?

If you believe that it's because the gsd is such a relatively young breed, and therefore Titles are required to maintain the breed characteristics, why is a new breed such as the Boykin Spaniel able to hunt and no parents have ever been required to be Titled before breeding.
In other words, many breeds retain breed characteristics specific to them without titles being necessary.... The gsd breed is unique to that requirement. Is it weak genetics?

 

Personally, I believe it's a cult that imposes what no other breed is forced to do. Other breeds are still able to work without ever being titled.

Swarme: 'Getting a dog from a BYB is fine, as long as' its a perfect pet....., 'and doesn't die agonizingly in 6 years...'

BYBrs don't have the corner on that. It can happen to the best, even a 2x BSP champ, before 6th birthday.

RIP Bolle....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rphz1j2jMy0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

Joanro, forget the word "title" - replace it with "trained and compared with other dogs doing the same according to their official breed characteristics".

"Other breeds are still able to work without ever being titled."

That´s not true - just look at the Dobermann, the Boxer, the Rottweiler, the Airdale Terrier, the Schnauzer ( all of them are "classic" German SchH dogs ) - you want to buy one of these breeds and compete in IPO? Take care you do a very good research, because most of them are not suitable for any serious work any more. Some breeders still breed good dogs, but their breeding is based on competing and trialing.

About your X-Huskies and your Fox Terriers - you are a very talented trainer, you pretty sure know how to select (!) good working prospects, and you surely are always able to get the best out of the animals you train. No comparison, though - we will never know if your sled dogs would have been able to go an official sled dog race, simply because they didn´t need to; and we will never know if your Terriers would have been great in a real hunting scenario, again, simply because they didn´t need to.
I guess you would have been able to compete with all of them, but that´s based on your skills as animal trainer.

That´s like the so called "instinct tests" - they are able to show you if the dog COULD be suitable for XYZ, but they are not enough, they are the beginning of a long way.

It´s about selection, selection is based on comparison, comparison is based on standards.

In case selection doesn´t matter every average GSD ( including ASLs, Alsatians, and so on ) would be able to title in IPO, but that´s not the case. Some will still be able to compete, but most won´t.

Why? Almost all of them are bred for "calm, friendly, easy going temperament" - not for working abilities.
They lost their drives.

I used to be in SV and DVG clubs for 3 decades at least 3 times/week.
What I learned out of that time:
Most often strong parents tend to produce strong puppies
whereas
almost always weak parents tend to produce weak puppies
( in case of drive, temperament, character, working ability )
What I learned, too:
A lot of people believe that their own dogs are the epitome of the breed, but as soon as they actually start to train and compare, they start to realise the differences within the breed.

Susie, you are wrong on several points, these breeds you mentioned where never working over prey only and started to fall back when training changed and agression became unwanted in the breeds, in sport the malis and GSD  "survived "as they have larger numbers and work well without agression, and prey only, 

in these breeds there are still breeders that title their breedingstock, but even the offspring off that titled stock is not fit to real testing mostly, there are some exeptions

these breeds basically proove that breeding titled stock only, doesnot "save "the qualities in the breed

I know multi titled airdales , boxers, rotties and dobes, some riesenschnauzers and bouviers, but most are titled on homefield on own helper they trained on, also here some exeptions

SchH  used to be a TEST, but do you really want to call something a TEST if you can train your dog for it for two years

Duke, my GSDs never worked "over prey only", and they have been nothing special...

About SchH and "test" - it´s up to every trainer and / or spectataor, if SchH/IPO for HIM / HER is a test, or if it´s only "something my dog has to pass"...

That´s what I am trying to say the whole time - go out there, train, and become able to compete - not more, not less.
No training ( be it IPO, KNPV, Ringsport, whatever ) = no ability to compare even on the lowest level.

" in these breeds there are still breeders that title their breedingstock, but even the offspring off that titled stock is not fit to real testing mostly, there are some exeptions"

Now you are contradicting yourself - either those dogs have never been "civil" or they lost their initial aggression due to "selective breeding" ...

 

BREEDERS are the ones expected to title their stock. The parent breed org demands it.

An individual that does not breed their dog has no moral obligation to IPO title it, although they are welcome to do so for fun.

If I was breeding and selling puppies to the public I would title my stock out of respect and ethics. I don't breed gsd, I am not interested in sport so I wont title my dog.

What a failed call out joan made, no amount of ancient rodeo pics can compensate.
 

 

NO VK it is rule for german shep club, not all breeds

@ suzie, not contradicting myself, selective breeding can change a breed in few generations, rottweilers used to be hard and dominant dogs, now I see many soft and biddable rottweilers in IPO, but still titled dogs

Duke, NOBODY is forced to title GSDs besides BREEDERS in my country.
You want an active companion? Go for it - no title needed.

Rottweilers - you now say what I already said - selective breeding changed the breed.
That´s what I tried to tell Joanro, nothing else.