The "Judges Committment Declaration for Conformation Judges BSZS" - Page 3

Mackenzie For the breed and for the education of folks either new to the breed or unfamilar with the epileptics in Ballack's pedigree please highlight the known fitters & carriers for us. 

I try to keep up on the genetics but this one escaped me. I am familiar w/ the English lines carrying it which appear to originate in an early import. I had not brought his lines down thru modern wg dogs tho.

I am in the US & interestingly the lines I knew of w/ epilepsy all could be traced to one bitch from England who carried that import's lineage. This is one disease where knowing your "back forty" as I call it does matter.

Thanks.

Your post TIG was good, but I doubt that anyone will be kind enough to post to you unless it is via off the data base. Am saying this because of what happened to me in the same manner.

A GSD I knew had an unusual form of EPI a university study said. They asked me to see if I could find any other dogs related to this one which had this issue, so that there could be more to the study. The breeder became strange, divorced, moved far away, so that source ended. Breeder without knowing things had line bred the sire and dam. Since some dogs were on both sides of the pedigree, it was very possible the same dog on both sides was the carrier vs two totally different dogs carrying the same gene I was looking for.

In return I was instead of being thanked for trying to help the breed, was treated as if I had committed the most evil crime of the last two centuries.

In a certain horse breed, a certain very bad gene was, I think, killing foals. The pattern was known as say sex-linked, so it was known which horse would be a carrier and which not if one checked the carriers before doing a breeding.

Breeders got together and only did a breeding that would only produce clear foals. After a while by working together, the gene disappeared. Cooperation!! Coorperation!! No damning of other breeders when they spoke the truth or asked for the truth and the truth of cooperation worked to eliminate the bad gene.

So best wishes to you TIG in your quest to find the answer to a nasty truth. [seisures could be a brain tumor]

TIG - Sorry to be late in answering your post but I have been in Hospital and only came out today.

If you look at the posts in the thread "Anyone have a son or daughter of Ballack von der Brucknerallee?" you will see that I have given some information which may be useful. There will be other carriers and fitters but due to the silence, Data Protection Act and my own forgetfulness I cannot give more information at this time.
It would be useful if you could tell me the name of the female mentioned in your post as it may jog my memory.

Mackenzie

Moved at Alamanace request from another topic.

by Alamance on 05 October 2016 - 23:10 (userip: 70.211.138.137)

This post should have in the thread where there was talk of epilepsy and the link to and from England.  Hope the admin can move it there.

The following two dogs produced an EPI dog. The two dogs are Hanko Von Der Aulisburg and Aga Vom Geierskoppel.

So who behind them either were carriers or had EPI??

Hanko was the son of Aga's grandfather.

The American breeder never had a clue about how to read a pedigree.

I was asked by AKC to read each of the sire's and dam's pedigrees as the breeder at first did not want to bother getting their AKC registrations and they had not been bred at that time.

So, there is no help from her and she moved, so no help about the litter as the papers must have been destroyed when she moved.

As I said, a PhD in a college pled with me to find a gene in previous dogs. I sure would like help and not criticism, as this would help the rest of us and the dogs.

 

The two German dogs identified by Western Rider both have Canto v d Wienerau behind them. In the background to Aga Vom Geierskoppel is Argus v Klammle who is sired by Canto. His brother Asslan was in the USA where he became Select Champion. Canto is also the sire if Frei v Holtkamper See.

In short Canto appears in the lines of Aga 6,6,6,7,7,7 - 5,6,6,6,7,7,7 and 6,6,7,7,7,7 - 6,6,7 and 6 - 5,7 behind Asslan. I leave other readers, especially from the USA to sort that out.

Mackenzie

Yes, I took the lines further back than you did to more than 10 generations. But so what? Which dog or dogs had the EPI gene? Whether it was one of the dogs who appeared multi times or the two totally unknown dogs one from each side -- which ones were the guilty parties??

Alamance - It is difficult to say which animals after Canto carried the disease further. I think that a starting point is to look at the American lines that were from Asslan and try to identify an animal off of his first generation lines who suffered from epilepsy. If is possible I would then start to look at the dogs from that first generation and see if their progeny produced an epileptic and so on. An absolutely mammoth job. If you already know of epileptic animals in the US lines then check them to see if Asslan or any other known epileptic dog is there going back to Canto.

I would be interested to know your findings. Do you know of any UK imports that have been in the USA going back as far as 1975? If so please let me know and I will research them. I may be able to cast a little more light on the subject.

Mackenzie

Mack, in how many percent of German dogs will you be able to find Canto?
In case he is the "guilty" part, where did it come from?
Which of his thousands of descendants have been carriers?
How many "EPI" dogs are there in reality?

Alamance is right, there are way to many unknowns, you can´t blame one male born almost 40 years ago ( that´s around 15 generations, compared to humans that´s like talking about a human ancestor born in 1640 ...).

Susie - I am not suggesting that Canto is solely responsible for epilepsy and, I agree with both yourself and Alamance, that it is an impossible task to go back through all the generations. Whatever we think now the problem must have began in Germany.

I think that we have to identify as many known epileptics as possible and research their backgrounds. Once again, this is a mammoth task and not something that many people would want to take on.

The only way is to take a starting point to a more recent time with known epileptic animals. Another mammoth task.

Mackenzie

Mack, I guess this problem is way older than the "breed" ( in our case German Shepherd Dogs ).
Interestingly some breeds are more affected than others ( well known in Golden Retriever, Labrador Retriever, Collie, Beagle, Boxer, Toy Poodle, Vizla, Cocker Spaniel ), but sometimes in German Shepherd Dogs, too.

Epilepsy is known for x centuries in humans, there may be no difference in dogs, no matter the breed.