Long coat GSD - Page 3

My dog Jasper (Silkenwood Santos) is a long coat without an undercoat. He has very silky, fine hair which hasn't changed over the years. A nightmare to vacuum up, a proper water baby and can take an age to dry out.

  about a year old

     9 years old

Ann.

Thanks Swarnendu , good answers to my questions 😉

Ann thanks for posting a pic of your Jasper . He's a handsome boy

[Hundmutter] 19.6.2016 - 10:06
● "[And where did the "three grey wolves" creep in from ???]"
From zoos - in Germany for some suspect lines of GSDs, in the Netherlands for the Saarloos, in Czechoslovakia for the Czechoslovakian Vlcak.

Co-dominance:
Swarnendu should have supplied an example to explain co-dominance. I forget whether it was primroses or sweet-peas or what that led Mendel to discover co-dominance. He worked out that its red flowers were homozygous for the co-dominant allele that produces red flowers, the white flowers were homozygous for the co-dominant allele that produces white flowers, and cross-pollinating them produced heterozygotes where the flowers have BOTH pigments so are pink.
http://anthro.palomar.edu/mendel/mendel_3.htm   has a short section about it.


[LadyBossGSD] 19.6.2016 - 11:06

● "#1 does it take 2 long coats to produce long coat puppies?"
You FIRST need to decide which so-called "long-coat" you refer to - the LSH, whose guard hairs are soft and about 100mm/4" long, or the LH, whose guard-hairs are silky-whispy and about 150mm/6" long. If you mean the LH, I shall have to report you to the judge as unfit to own a GSD - ESPECIALLY if you regard the LH as desirable! A working breed should PERFORM work, not force its "pet human" to do lots of work brushing & combing & washing the coat, plus to tape a raincoat to the pooch when it is needed to work in rain and/or a frigid wind! Leave THAT for the self-punishing show-addicts!

Because the L^ allele for StockHaar is dominant to the l^ for LangHaar, and because we SEE only the phenotype, not the genotype, it is quite possible for a pair of StockHaars to produce one or more LSHs or LHs. Remembering that, apart from "accidents" that can occur during meiosis (the gene-swapping then splitting of chromosomes so that half the genes go to this gamete, half to that gamete), each individual has 2 copies of every gene, we cannot tell whetehr the SH stud is  L^ L^  or  L^ l^ , and likewise cannot tell whether the SH brood is  L^ L^  or  L^ l^  - not until it PRODUCES an LSH or LH offspring.

An  L^ L^  to  L^ L^ mating can produce ONLY SHs.
An  L^ L^  to  L^ l^ mating can produce only SHs, but on average, half of them will inherit an  l^  and so be carriers.
An  L^ l^  to  L^ l^ mating will, on average, produce one  L^ L^  SH to each two  L^ l^  SHs that are carriers to one   l^ l^ LSH or LH. You cannot predict the EXACT proportion of each you will get, because both meiosis and fertilisation are random processes. It took Mendel a LOT of planting & counting to deduce that when you mate heterozygous parents you will get 3 dominant phenotype for each 1 recessive phenotype, but there will be 1 homozygous dominant genotype for each 2 heterozygous dominant+recessive genotypes and 1 homozygous recessive genotype.

● "#2 If you have a larger litter do you have more of a chance to get a long coat?"
Yes & no. A larger sample gives you a better chance of finding out whether both parents carry the same recessive. There were certain disorders where a test-mating to a known carrier of a debilitating recessive was used to impregnate a bitch who MIGHT be a carrier. The test-litters were NOT to be registered, regardless of the outcome, because about half the pups were carriers from the sire's genotype.
But 1 to 16 pups is a SMALL sample. Statistics require LARGE samples. Mendel counted tens of thousands of seeds or flowers, and still hadn't reached the perfect 3 : 1 phenotype ratio that he postulated.

● "#3 am I reading this right to determine that basically you can never really predict when your gonna get a long coat pup out of a litter because it's so random?"
Not quite right. People who DELIBERATELY mate a pair of LSHs or LHs are certain that they will get NO SHs. Because it is believed that there is a modifier gene at work, they cannot predict how many will be LSHs, how many LHs.


[Swarnendu] 19.6.2016 - 12:06
Terminology, lad!
● "Q.3. If both the parents are true shortcoats (LL),"
All SHs are truly SHs. But not all of them are homozygous for the L^ allelle.

পরিভাষা, বালক! গুগল বাংলা হোমজাইগস এবং হেটেরোজাইগস অনূদিত হয়েছে? Paribhāṣā, bālaka! Gugala bānlā hōmajā'igasa ēbaṁ hēṭērōjā'igasa anūdita haẏēchē?

Les, regarding your claim that "we cannot tell whetehr the SH stud is  L^ L^  or  L^ l^ , and likewise cannot tell whether the SH brood is  L^ L^  or  L^ l^  - not until it PRODUCES an LSH or LH offspring.",

http://www.animalgenetics.us/Canine/Canine-color/Length.asp

says we can, there are genetic tests available to determine that.

Regarding, why I didn't use the terms "Homozygous" or "Heterozygous", well, I know that as a teacher you believe in providing as much information as possible, hoping that the recipient will be able to digest as much as he/she can. But, I believe too much information could make a newbie run for her life (no offence, Lady)

কিন্তু, আপনি সর্বদাই সঠিক, হে মহাগুরু ! (But, you're always right. O great teacher!)

@Hundmutter, the geneticist of our group says there are other modifier genes which are responsible for the variations in coat length. She didn't elaborate, because she probably thinks I cannot digest too advanced genetics.

So, there goes my "Co-dominance" b/s regarding coat length.

@ Ann - and that is not to mention the KNOTS if Jasper's coat gets tangled while walking in the woods, eh ? Thanks for providing pictures. Would you believe I've known GSDs with EVEN LONGER coats than his ?

 

@ Les, no I meant the specific 3 (wolves) that the article Swarnendu provided just threw something in about. Unless their origin and relevance is described in the full Study Reports, their presence in the Abstract serves merely to confuse, rather than conclude anything re coat length. Just for the record I can't think of any Show Addicts who would WANT to do all that you describe (and they WOULD have to !) in order to show a 'proper' LONG coat. All those creeping into the show rings are LSH. [Because judges are going to notice there is 'no' undercoat ?]

Sadly there is however a ready market for all things GSDs 'cute and fluffy' OUTSIDE the 'show' community.  I, like you, wish the breed authorities and kennel clubs would get their act together and co-ordinated on coat length.

 

Every opportunity I get on here, I sing the song about genetics not being a precise predictor that every animal in every litter will fit the picture posed by the science, because there are random processes at work and because nobody can see ALL litters born in the world at any one time, to confirm the ratios do work out.   Some things about science we have to take on trust !

 

@ Swarnendu, had a sneaking suspicion you might have to come to that conclusion.

Yes, Hundmutter, "other (still to be identified) modifier genes" seems to be the most common answer whenever you try to get past the basics, true for differences in coat pattern, probably also true for the absence of a proper undercoat.

But, I cannot argue with a geneticist, can I?!

@ Hundmutter, yes the knots are a pain. As Jasper loves water to get at the back end for grooming he stands next to a running outdoor tap, that way I can give him a good going over, scissors are handy too. As far as temperament goes I couldn't have hoped for a better dog. One occasion a child, could have only been about 4 year old, took a stick from Jasper's mouth and started playing with him, the parent looked horrified so I said to the boy that he should always ask first to see if it is ok to play with a dog, thinking he would ask me, but no he went straight up to Jasper and nose to nose asked if he was a friendly dog, got a lick on the nose and they continued to play. Jasper was the only long coat in his litter, my children picked him.  Don't know how genetics will fit with this one but today a child asked whether Jasper was a werewolf, bless.

 Ann ! Cute story.