SchH titled, American bred GSDs of the 70s, 80s, 90s – questions and a list - Page 3

I have a friend who does SchH with her AmLine, locally. Not sure if he is titled yet or not, he went missing for about 9 mos, and she has like 10 kids, so...

Not sure on his pedigree exactly, but I know he has Dallas in his lines, and is just shy of being a Ch. His full sibling was at the Eukanuba show a month or two ago. He also does other sports too.

Well the GSDCA would love to hear from you. This sounds like the GSDCA trying to prove Am. bred dogs are contributing to the the quality of the future of the GSD in the United States. Good luck with that. As far as Fidelco, The program went to shit when people like Jodi were involved ( I was a foster) .New era coming and hopefully they will find better resources.

Well the GSDCA would love to hear from you. This sounds like the GSDCA trying to prove Am. bred dogs are contributing to the the quality of the future of the GSD in the United States.

Uh...no.  Dunno where you're getting that idea, but no.

Again, this thread is not about the ASL dogs of today. Also, I do not have any stake in American bred dogs, or in show dogs of any kind. This thread does not have a mission, and certainly not to prove anything about today's ASL dogs. More than four decades of selective breeding for one conformation trait only will have left their impact on this population, physically and temperamentally.

As a pedigree researcher I study ... pedigrees, going waaaay back. And I care about maintaining the genetic diversity that the GSD once had, about the versatility this breed once had, and in pockets still has. So when I began studying American pedigrees I saw how different the dogs used to be, and I came across these SchH titled dogs. Been pondering these for a while now. My questions are historical. Who were these dogs, what are their pedigrees, where were they titled, who were their handlers, were they bred from, and why did they disappear from SchH? What role did the AKC's ban on 'bite sports' have in that change? And what about dogs in LE in North America in the 70s, 80s, 90s?

What were the breeding programs with these dogs, if any? In import countries some breeders breed only from lines that have been in the import country for a long time, while others keep using fresh imports and cross them with local lines to keep diversity and to bring in or strengthen wanted traits. It looks like Dr Graves (Trommel), whom DenWolf wrote about in this thread, had a viable breeding program of crossing dogs like Bodo Gräfental with sound American bred dogs of their day. Where did breeding strategies like this go?

 

 

 

 

 

Have been looking at some of the dogs Living Fence posted.

Dan Smith, a well-known AKC judge has always had an interest in Schutzhund, but has not been able to find a line that consistently produces dogs that can title in the sport and still place in the AKC conformation ring. From what I've heard, some of his lines have been plagued with health problems, too. That aside...

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=487320-darbydans-audi

What a GORGEOUS head on that dog! He goes back to Marko v. Cellerland, who is known to produce dogs that can work. Unfortunately, that line has been nearly lost in current German show line GSDs

To answer some of your questions, the ban on bite sports caused the AKC ring to become a beauty show only. Even today, the dogs you see in the show ring (with a very few exceptions - Xeph is one!) will NOT be the same ones competing in obedience, tracking and other training venues. It makes me very sad.

Most of the breeders that insisted on breeding for the 'complete dog' fell by the wayside, as their dog's structure could not win in the show ring, therefore no one wanted to breed to their males or buy their puppies. If your dog wasn't extreme at both ends, you just would not be able to place in the show ring. And, of course, the extreme structure impeded the dog's ability to work.

I ran across this post by Gustav in my search for info on Marko. It says it all...

Preston, your information is very accurate as is your synopsis in my opinion. America did have some nice dogs in the 60's and 70's that people of the last twenty years don't have a clue. Most military and police dogs during this period were NOT imports. They were from American kennels that may have had foundation German stock but were still breeding very good solid dogs based on "what the perception a GS should be"(and rightfully so). When the fad for this extreme sidegait necessitating extreme angulation took hold, then many of the top breeders who still bred show dogs but would have other dogs in the litters become military/police/seeing-eye/dogs, starting breeding for the fad. As this increased, temperament went to Hell in a handbasket!! What people can't get through their heads is this bottleneck on both sides of the water is 30 years of irresponsible breeding for the wrong outcomes(asthetic beauty), and CANNOT be reversed with the same dogs that created it by going phenotype to phenotype.(In other words I will breed to the same genetic type with good temperament and working ability and things will improve....nope won't happen, hasn't happened, and genetically is impossible to happen...sorry folks wishing it won't do it. It must be genetically altered by bringing in new blood outside the Bl and Rd scope!!!!!!

Gustav could answer your question about LE dogs, but I've noticed he seems reluctant to actually name individual dogs or kennels. Probably he's afraid to step on any toes, which is easy to do given the politics in the dog world.

Sunsilver, not really afraid of stepping on toes....just tired of fighting people who value what they " Like" more than maintaining the essentials of the breed. And that applies to sidegait as well as the looooong launching courage test. People used to breed to dogs to maintain the ideal of the dog, people today breed to dogs to maintain their status in artificially created worlds. So the use of our breed in real world has continued to decrease. Some will understand the above, others are too involved, but in the end it should be about the breed and not people's likes/winning.

I agree with Gustav 100%. No ifs or buts.

I decided at the beginning of this year that I would not post again here but I felt that Gustav should be supported. Also, it is not about individual dogs but the whole principle of breeding correctly.

Mackenzie

I don’t think it has much to do with “artificial worlds.” The world in which the majority of GSD live is a real world, a world where not everyone can be a police dog handler, a military dog handler, or need a service dog. Most dogs are pets, and sports have been created to keep those of us that want these types of dogs, doing something.

In my opinion the breed has evolved much more in the last 30 years due to specialization and greater understanding of dog training. Working dogs today are expected to do a lot more than they were back then. People have developed skills and abilities that allow us to release a lot more of a canine’s ability and along with that came breeding for more specific traits. That is the original idea behind dog breeds and so at this point that is getting refined even more.

The reason American Line GSD have lost a large portion of their working ability? Dogs else where are better. Why settle for something lesser just because it’s “made in the USA” when you can easily get something that more suits your needs else where? The reason German dogs started getting imported is more than likely due to the fact that when some Americans back then went to compete with the Europeans on a world level, they saw what their dogs lacked. Rather than improving what was already here, which could take generations of dogs, the people started to import the dogs that were already bred for that for decades.

I understand the mindset of those that want to keep the breed “utilitarian” but that just doesn’t work in today’s world. Everyone and everything is specialized, and it’s comical to believe that the same wouldn’t happen with dogs. Those that blame sport…just don’t realize how little of a percentage sport is of the population of GSD. There’s also a ton of breeders that although they use IPO to test their stock…they aren’t what anyone would consider high level competitors and their dogs are more than likely a lot like the “utilitarian” dogs that people like to believe the GSD should be. Yet I’m not seeing those types of breeders getting phone calls from “working dog trainers” for their dogs…makes you think.

In my opinion the breed has evolved much more in the last 30 years due to specialization and greater understanding of dog training. Working dogs today are expected to do a lot more than they were back then. People have developed skills and abilities that allow us to release a lot more of a canine’s ability and along with that came breeding for more specific traits.

IMO, these words above are WHY the breed is not the utilitarian and strong dog that it once was.     Because of "modern" training methods, dogs of lesser character and balance of drives are getting further in the sport world than they would have "back in the day".    Specialization has evolved the dog into something that does not resemble the "workhorse/jack-of-all-trades dog" of years ago, both physically and mentally.     Although I do not advocate the more insensitive training of years past, one must admit that dogs had to be "tougher" to get through to higher levels of sport work.    Yes, the picture of dogs obedience back then was not what it is today, but then those dogs were usually more balanced in drive.

To get back to the OP, the American-bred GSD (3 or 4 gens of Am bred dogs?   still no answer on that one) has been bred by many fanciers without regard to the utility of the dog, and without regard to temperament that would allow the dog to do sport/police/etc. work (or breed test work).    It is no wonder then, that one sees less and less of the Am-bred GSD on the sport field (or in police, etc work), as the breeding practices have taken the breed further from the traits that would make a dog suitable for that "task".     "Specialization" has shaped the Am-bred GSD of today into what it is, and in fact some may say that there is so much differentiation one could consider it a different breed altogether.

As Gustav says, from personal experience, the Am-bred dogs once were suitable for sport/police/etc. work, and there were people who tried to maintain that.     Did those people give up, give in, pass away with no one to carry on their program, or find that there was no "blood" to use within the Am-bred lines?