Schraderhaus K9? - Page 4

I can not speak for Jean's program but I can speak for my own-

I HAVE bred dogs prior to getting them titled and there is a good chance that I may do it again at some point in the future.  Does it mean that I want the same for dogs that I put out there bearing my kennel name- NO.  Is this hypocritical, maybe it is.  Not really any different than a big name kennel only breeding Schutzhund titled dogs but then selling to any person who comes up with the cash and then not being a resource to their buyers when something goes wrong

I do not breed until I have health clearances on my breeding dogs.  TO ME AT THIS TIME IN MY PROGRAM, Health is above titles in the rank of importance.  Most of my breeding dogs are titled in some venue. 

Regarding the flagrant accusation that breeders only limit registration to prevent others from making money is ridiculous.  If they are willing to lift the reg, then they are setting a standard under which they are willing to sell a breeding dog.  In my own program, I have yet to turn a profit.  Not a free and clear profit-  All my earnings have been turned back into my program and have gone into training, kennels and kennel buildings, vetting, new dogs, registration fees, food, supplies etc.   I work a 40 hour job and come home to clean my own kennels and feed my own dogs. This is my fun, my hobby, my interest.    

The day that AKC implements health standard requirements, age requirements  and training requirements prior to issuing registration will be the day that I turn over my limited reg option.

FWIW, I once sold on full reg. I have evolved and I have raised my own standards over time. 

This is en example of why I do not sell on full reg anymore 

My 11/06/09 litter produced 4 male puppies.

One went to a lady who proclaimed all sorts of promises about her ethics and intentions. 
She then violated my contract and registered the puppy into her own kennel name.  I confronted her on it and insisted she change the name. She agreed but then....
She bred that dog when he was 18 months old (prior to any health clearances) to a 2 year old female without health clearances - once a dog has produced a litter, the name can not be changed.
The litter was born on 7/16/11 and she sold all the puppies on full registration for $1000 +
about a year later, she got one of the females back and when the pup was 15 months old, she bred her back to her father (the dog I sold her)
That litter whelped on 2/26/13 and all puppies were sold on full registration for $1000-$2500 

None of her dogs have been worked in ANY venue

A 2nd puppy from my 09 litter just sired a litter of 9. He was bred to an unregistered female and neither dog has had health clearances. The owner adamantly defends her decision to breed and tells me "he and his mate are really nice dogs"

A 3rd puppy from that litter resides with a mother and daughter and is reported to be a great family dog.  He has not been bred.

And the last pup from that litter was worked as a young dog. The owner was planning on trialing him in Schutzhund but at about a year of age, the dog jumped off of a retaining wall and suffered a injury to one hip.  Last I heard, he was neutered.




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I had an extreme experience, before I purchased my GSD. I was looking at a Bernese mountain dog pup and the breeder wanted to neuter the pup at 12 weeks before selling it to me..obviously in that case it was all about restricting competition. In general, selling with limited reg is outdated. There are so many good breeders who sell with full registration.

Slamming a breeder because they sell on limited is silly - if  you don't like that policy, move on. Plenty of breeders out there who will sell full.

I'd rather see a breeder sell pups with limited registration - weeds out the wanna-be puppy millers.  

Also if you are interested in a breeder that sells limited and for some specific reason you need or want full - just discuss it with them! The breeder I got my dog from sells on limited, with a clause to upgrade full if certain conditions are met (health testing, titles attained, etc), but I needed to get a pup on full registration in order to register him with the C(anadian)KC.  

 

"Slamming a breeder because they sell on limited is silly - if  you don't like that policy, move on. Plenty of breeders out there who will sell full. I'd rather see a breeder sell pups with limited registration - weeds out the wanna-be puppy millers."

This is an obtuse statement. I had only recommended that the OP review the breeders policy. Selling on limited reg, "does not weed out any puppy millers"...because there are hundreds of breeders who sell good dogs with full reg. What breeds out puppy millers is education of the general public re: OFA, health issues, working abilities etc.Puppy millers dont care too much about pedigrees anyway, neither is it too difficult to mess around with pedigree and AKC registration.

To sell a pup with limited reg, is very condescending to the buyer, much better to not sell to an "iffy"  buyer than to behave this way. It puts the buyer on a probationary status... Think about it. The only part I agree with is, that buyers should move on from such breeders.
 

In fact, requiring limited registration does "weed out" puppy millers and people who want to breed irresponsibly. It keeps those people from getting one of my puppies. On more than one occasion it has sent people who want to start breeding at 12 months and without xrays or any working evaluation away from my door.

That's good by me.

Christine

all people do when they buy limited AKC is to register on UKC and register puppies from limit dogs they bought there

Blackthorne...what you are achieving is that supposed "puppy millers" are not getting your dogs...but they do get other dogs, so they are not stopped. Puppy millers are not very fastidious about the dog that they breed to...infact an unintended consequence might be that if they are allowed to breed good dogs...they might even improve the GSD puppy mill output somewhat.

Restricting puppy millers from getting good dogs, only allows the propagation of poor quality dogs. Heck, some of the large german kennels, breed show dogs in the thousands..these are the famous names in germany. Some would consider them glorified puppy millers.

I understand what you are saying, but I think that is no reason for me to just shrug and give up. I, for one, prefer to do my best to have my pups (and further generations, if possible) in the best possible homes (by my definition). I can't help thousands of other dogs, but I can do my best for the dogs I bring into this world.

So, yeah, if I think someone is planning to breed irresponsibly and without regard for the well-being of both the pup I am selling and future generations, I'm pleased to so easily "screen them out" via limited registration.  And when there was someone who I knew was already breeding dogs with no papers (no health checks, no papers, no titles, no working certifications--but sold for >$1000!)  who wanted one of mine (with a promise xray and title), I ended up suggesting they find their next dog from somewhere else because I knew the lack of AKC papers wouldn't stop them from continuing their breeding practices. (One of the biggest red flags was when I saw them lying on their own FB page assuring an interested buyer that their dogs were xrayed, of course. If they'll lie to buyers, *of course* they'll lie to me.)

And for someone who has good reason and a good reputation, especially someone who I have known for a while, I will consider selling without limited registration, and I've done so.

Christine

OMG... if people don;t like the "contract" then move on and buy from someone else.. i have learned that no matter what, it is not about the contract but the people who write it/sign it. I have seen here on this very forum some warrantee/ seller buyer deals turn into a bitch contest of fury and a law suit..

Guddu only pointed it out/ the warrantee. The buyer can make a decision based on their own believes. The rest is just crap...

I personally can give two "shits" about any guarantees... if I get a dog, it stays with me or I place it with someone if that needs to be done. I am also not paying 2K for a puppy. I come from different place with different opinions! Guddu likes full registration and it shall be respected. Some people like to have a little "hills to climb first" before full reg, is given. And they should be respected for that also.


 

My first (many) dogs in Canada (from Canada) were purchased on limited papers (non-breeding contracts - don't know if AKC is different - in Canada these can be lifted by the breeder, usually based on the contract terms).  It made me do the work (which I would have done, but it's also about developing trust with the breeder) to get the non-breeding lifted.  It's also a huge amount of extra work for the breeder.  My breeder stayed in contact and provided encouragement, mentorship, guidance and support along the way.  And then they have to do the paperwork to have the non-breeding lifted.  At that time, my non-breeding was lifted when the dog completed a title and passed OFA hips and elbows.  Seemed pretty reasonable to me and it ensured I did the work and I "knew" the breeder cared enough about the dogs to ensure that they weren't just going out into the world willy nilly.  That particular breeder never sold dogs without a non-breeding contract.  

I purchased my dogs from Jean on full papers, and she still has provided  encouragement, mentorship, guidance and support along the way just like the first person I dealt with.  I also came to her as a more experienced owner than the first breeder I dealt with.  And I am titling my dogs and they will be OFA'd hips/elbows before breeding.  The two dogs are the first ones I purchased from Jean, but the 8th and 9th dogs I have purchased in my life.

Don't like the contract, don't sign it. Simple as that.  But also do look at the other side of the coin, and the motivations behind it. Getting to know the person helps to understand the motivations for the contracts.  I personally am more wary of people who don't offer contracts with puppies.  The only two dogs that I had troubles with were the two that didn't have contracts come with them. One was a nutbar, the other was a beautiful monorchid.