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by Ryanhaus on 11 July 2012 - 11:07
I had a litter of 12 pups 6 years back, one of the pups has gone on to become
a stud dog and is producing better pups than himself, that being said, a lady that
has his brother came to me a couple of years back and said her dog had allergies,
I told her that from what I know of the others from that litter as I keep intouch with
as many puppy buyers as I can for updates that everyone else was doing fine.
I had the lady meet me at MY vets office to evaluate her dog, and yes...he looked
like he had skin problems, I offered to pay for the visit and the vet suggested that she
put the dog on a raw diet...no more processed dog food, to this day the dog looks like
a million bucks, shinny coat, handsome guy!
I would need to know all the environmental aspects of what could be causing such allergies:
What are you feeding your dog?
What kind of vaccinations has he had?
I have a female that tested positive at age two for Lyme during her routine heartworm check
and I never gave her antibiotics for Lyme cause she was never showing any symptoms,
she has had pups that have all beenvery healthy, and just may be carrying anti-bodies
to Lyme disease,
who knows but if you
keep giving your dogs a shot for everything out there how are they supposed to built up any
defense towards their environment, all they can build up is a weak immune system.
That female is now nine years old and very healthy.
I strongly urge all my puppy buyers to only get a distemper, parvo & flu shot for their pup,
then of course the rabies shot after that, I used to get the 5 in one or 7 in one shots for my
pups thinking more was better, but now after reading about over vaccination, I feel less is
better, maybe a weak immune system can come from over vaccination or feeding the wrong diet and could most likely lead to allergies.
a stud dog and is producing better pups than himself, that being said, a lady that
has his brother came to me a couple of years back and said her dog had allergies,
I told her that from what I know of the others from that litter as I keep intouch with
as many puppy buyers as I can for updates that everyone else was doing fine.
I had the lady meet me at MY vets office to evaluate her dog, and yes...he looked
like he had skin problems, I offered to pay for the visit and the vet suggested that she
put the dog on a raw diet...no more processed dog food, to this day the dog looks like
a million bucks, shinny coat, handsome guy!
I would need to know all the environmental aspects of what could be causing such allergies:
What are you feeding your dog?
What kind of vaccinations has he had?
I have a female that tested positive at age two for Lyme during her routine heartworm check
and I never gave her antibiotics for Lyme cause she was never showing any symptoms,
she has had pups that have all beenvery healthy, and just may be carrying anti-bodies
to Lyme disease,
who knows but if you
keep giving your dogs a shot for everything out there how are they supposed to built up any
defense towards their environment, all they can build up is a weak immune system.
That female is now nine years old and very healthy.
I strongly urge all my puppy buyers to only get a distemper, parvo & flu shot for their pup,
then of course the rabies shot after that, I used to get the 5 in one or 7 in one shots for my
pups thinking more was better, but now after reading about over vaccination, I feel less is
better, maybe a weak immune system can come from over vaccination or feeding the wrong diet and could most likely lead to allergies.
by nypiper127 on 11 July 2012 - 12:07
Again, my guy is on RAW and is the picture of health. When he was a young puppy he was scratching a lot (no hot spots) and was developing "impetigo" pimples / blisters on belly. Vet wanted to give antibiotics / prednisone (steroid), I didn't...and switched to raw and all is good, he is the picture of health. I never had time to mess around with "elimination diets" so I am not even sure what or if he is allergic to one thing in particular. I am also NOT interested in breeding him for this reason and the fact that I cannot invest the proper time to title my dogs, care for them equally, and provide the proper support to the buyers. I was just interested in the allergy topic after listening to my vets debate, and curious about real world "practicalities".
Mira, what is your final take on that one dog from the littter that developed the allergies? I am assuming that since you were able to meet your client at your vets office the puppy stayed local so the environment didn't change and trigger the allergy? Sounds like, the chances are, that if you held that puppy back for your breeding program (if he was your pick of the litter) you would have never known about the "potential allergy" as you feed raw and he would have been healthy all along. So, hypothetically speaking, your Sire or Dam could have had the same allergy but because you feed raw you didn't know? Were any of the pup's littermate also eating kibble? Did you ever figure out what triggered it? If you kept him, fed him raw, and then bred him...would his puppies have the "allergy" (All hypothetical at this point)? OR...(Hypothetical again) If you went through the vet visit with your client and he turned out healthy after RAW as he did AND your clients titled him SCH III, Va etc...awesome dog...would you encourage them to breed? Easy to say "no" here (safe)....but for arguements sake....
As a breeder and you (general not Mira specifically) find out one pup developed allergies is that something that would cause concern and re-evaluation of a Sire and / or Dam? I ask because I don't know (not a breeder). And again...is a bad reaction to garbage kibble really an allergy?
As for the lyme shot...my choice. Again, I live in high tick area, dog exposed to high grasses fields, woods with me. I have seen a Great K-9 unit get retired because of lyme. When he was healthy he was great but when lyme flared up he could harldy move. Just didn't want to chance it. Personal choice (and probably a different thread).
Mira, what is your final take on that one dog from the littter that developed the allergies? I am assuming that since you were able to meet your client at your vets office the puppy stayed local so the environment didn't change and trigger the allergy? Sounds like, the chances are, that if you held that puppy back for your breeding program (if he was your pick of the litter) you would have never known about the "potential allergy" as you feed raw and he would have been healthy all along. So, hypothetically speaking, your Sire or Dam could have had the same allergy but because you feed raw you didn't know? Were any of the pup's littermate also eating kibble? Did you ever figure out what triggered it? If you kept him, fed him raw, and then bred him...would his puppies have the "allergy" (All hypothetical at this point)? OR...(Hypothetical again) If you went through the vet visit with your client and he turned out healthy after RAW as he did AND your clients titled him SCH III, Va etc...awesome dog...would you encourage them to breed? Easy to say "no" here (safe)....but for arguements sake....
As a breeder and you (general not Mira specifically) find out one pup developed allergies is that something that would cause concern and re-evaluation of a Sire and / or Dam? I ask because I don't know (not a breeder). And again...is a bad reaction to garbage kibble really an allergy?
As for the lyme shot...my choice. Again, I live in high tick area, dog exposed to high grasses fields, woods with me. I have seen a Great K-9 unit get retired because of lyme. When he was healthy he was great but when lyme flared up he could harldy move. Just didn't want to chance it. Personal choice (and probably a different thread).
by joanro on 11 July 2012 - 12:07
If you eat garbage junk food and develop acne, does that mean you have allergies and a weak immune system? Seems to mean, that any animal rejecting ingested chemicals or contaminated processed grain products doesn't indicate compromised immune system. Could be the immune system is just overloaded and keeping up with the constant influx of garbage is manifesting in bad skin..... Happens in all creatures from caged pet birds to horses and every thing in the middle including humans.
by joanro on 11 July 2012 - 13:07
Forgot to say that when a horse, dog, parrot, human eat proper, healthy food and have impeccable health (inside and out) that indicates they are HEALTHY. It does NOT indicate that eating good healthy food is MASKING ill health or allergies. If a dog developed kennel cough, would you consider that hereditary?
by Blitzen on 11 July 2012 - 13:07
Puppy acne is very common, is not considered an allergy, has nothing to do with diet, and is self curing.
Causes of allergies in dogs are not well understood; what is known is that dogs that react to specific allergens have an "overactive" immune system. It's probably best to not repeat a breeding that has produced one or more progeny with allergies and to withold from breeding any male or female that has consistently produced allergic offspring.
Most allergic dogs will develop more allergies over time; allergies tend to get worst rather than better. Some allergic dogs will also go on to develop other autoimmune diseases like lupus, pemphigus, one of the leukemias.
I've been there done that, first inhaltion allergies, then chronic bacterial infections, then leukemia. I rather deal with almost any other canine diseases than allergies. Allergies are rarely life-threatening, but they are not curable and require treatment for the dog's entire life. I think that anyone who has had to deal with an allergic dog would never, ever use one for breeding.
BTW food is rarely the culprit, it's almost alwasy something the dog is inhaling. For a truly allergic dog, switching foods, feeding raw, will probably not matter for very long and it's back to square one. If feeding raw were the answer to all allergies, we wouldn't need to have this conversation.
Causes of allergies in dogs are not well understood; what is known is that dogs that react to specific allergens have an "overactive" immune system. It's probably best to not repeat a breeding that has produced one or more progeny with allergies and to withold from breeding any male or female that has consistently produced allergic offspring.
Most allergic dogs will develop more allergies over time; allergies tend to get worst rather than better. Some allergic dogs will also go on to develop other autoimmune diseases like lupus, pemphigus, one of the leukemias.
I've been there done that, first inhaltion allergies, then chronic bacterial infections, then leukemia. I rather deal with almost any other canine diseases than allergies. Allergies are rarely life-threatening, but they are not curable and require treatment for the dog's entire life. I think that anyone who has had to deal with an allergic dog would never, ever use one for breeding.
BTW food is rarely the culprit, it's almost alwasy something the dog is inhaling. For a truly allergic dog, switching foods, feeding raw, will probably not matter for very long and it's back to square one. If feeding raw were the answer to all allergies, we wouldn't need to have this conversation.
by nypiper127 on 11 July 2012 - 15:07
As stated...my dog picture of health last 5 years on raw. Five months ago daughter came to visit with her GSD and my guy got into her dogs kibble (blue buffalo) and he was a mess for a week....scratching, wax in ears....SO I would have to disagree with last post. That said, Blitzen, what you are saying that since Mira's breeding threw one puppy (out of 12) with allergies, she should never repeat that breeding?
The other interesting thing about Mira's breeding is that one of the pups has gone on to become a stud that is producing puppies "better than himself". Do any of those puppies have allergies? If not, how come?
by BlackthornGSD on 11 July 2012 - 15:07
About 15 years ago, I had a healthy dog begin to have terrible, terrible allergies--over the course of a year he went from normal to having terrible and irregular diarrhea and he had black, damaged skin and almost no hair from shoulders back. He went to a vet dermatologist, had allergy testing, and began allergy shots. My second dog also began to have terribly itchy skin that fall/winter.
In January, I moved from the Hampton Roads area of Virginia to central Virginia, I changed dog foods when I moved, and treated both my dogs for giardia (which they did eventually test positive for) and then treated my 2nd dog with ivermectin injections because I thought my she might have sarcoptic mites instead of real allergies. (Multiple skin scrapings scrapings on the first dog had never shown any mite issues and a skin scraping on the 2nd dog didn't show any either.)
After the injections, the 2nd dog's itchies went away entirely (and was never a problem for the rest of her life), so I figured, why not, and treated the first dog too with ivermectin injections.
His itchiness stopped, his skin healed up over the next months, and he never had allergies for the rest of his 14 years of life.
He was never bred--and was neutered later that year (when he was 4, I think).
But that experience has always muddied the water for me. Did he have allergies or not? What about the 2nd dog? What "cured" them? Were they just so immuno-compromised by the environment we were living in? Was it the giardia irritating their immune systems? Did they have an undetected mite infection?
I have a Jack Russell with terrible allergies--allergic to 25 out of 75 things he was tested on. Neither of his parents had allergies and none of his siblings do.
I have bred two dogs who are both free of allergies and have had puppy buyers end up with allergies in 2 out of 10 pups. I have not repeated that breeding, of course, but if the mom is showing no signs of any allergies and 80% of her puppies don't either--should she be bred or not bred again?
I don't think there are simple answers to the allergy problem. If a dog is having allergy problems, I would not breed him or her. If you have solved the problem with a simple change--was it an allergy to begin with?
Christine
In January, I moved from the Hampton Roads area of Virginia to central Virginia, I changed dog foods when I moved, and treated both my dogs for giardia (which they did eventually test positive for) and then treated my 2nd dog with ivermectin injections because I thought my she might have sarcoptic mites instead of real allergies. (Multiple skin scrapings scrapings on the first dog had never shown any mite issues and a skin scraping on the 2nd dog didn't show any either.)
After the injections, the 2nd dog's itchies went away entirely (and was never a problem for the rest of her life), so I figured, why not, and treated the first dog too with ivermectin injections.
His itchiness stopped, his skin healed up over the next months, and he never had allergies for the rest of his 14 years of life.
He was never bred--and was neutered later that year (when he was 4, I think).
But that experience has always muddied the water for me. Did he have allergies or not? What about the 2nd dog? What "cured" them? Were they just so immuno-compromised by the environment we were living in? Was it the giardia irritating their immune systems? Did they have an undetected mite infection?
I have a Jack Russell with terrible allergies--allergic to 25 out of 75 things he was tested on. Neither of his parents had allergies and none of his siblings do.
I have bred two dogs who are both free of allergies and have had puppy buyers end up with allergies in 2 out of 10 pups. I have not repeated that breeding, of course, but if the mom is showing no signs of any allergies and 80% of her puppies don't either--should she be bred or not bred again?
I don't think there are simple answers to the allergy problem. If a dog is having allergy problems, I would not breed him or her. If you have solved the problem with a simple change--was it an allergy to begin with?
Christine
by Jenni78 on 11 July 2012 - 15:07
Great post, Christine.
by Ryanhaus on 11 July 2012 - 15:07
nypiper127,
Most all my dogs that I breed are seen by me on a regular basis, I have used stud dogs
that I don't see on a regular basis but have common ancestors to the dogs that live with me.
I have bred out to different males that had different bloodlines/outcrossings for some new breeding stock and kept some of their
offspring only to be disappointed with the pups temperaments, and finding out later about health problems in the lines so I parted with them to
pet homes, as I don't want certain health issues coming back to haunt me.
One can not be sure that the person how owns the stud dog is being completely honest
about the dogs health background or for that matter if they even know about any health issues within 3 or more generations back, one breeder that has been in breeding dogs longer than I have did not know what DM was, that had me quite dumb founded to say the least.
Would I breed to the dog that had allergies and is now ok, no, only because I have not
owned the dog from day one and it lives in a different town than I so I don't know about
environmental influences, I can not weigh the pro's & con's as I don't have first hand knowledge.
If out of a litter of 12 someone had HD, I would say that was normal as the odds are
1 out of 10 pups is going to have something, and HD is a combination of both genetic and environmental.
I also breed labs, and one year my lab & shepherd had pups 2 days apart, I had them on kibble
dog food at the time, both were a repeat breeding I had used the same stud for each before and had beautiful healthy pups, but this one time things were different....out of each litter the lab had 2 pups out of 8 with noticeable overbites, and the shepherd had 2 pups out of 8 with overbites,
the only thing I could account for was the dog food, so I never used that brand again, but who
knows, it could of been in the water that year.
I just found it very strange that two different breeds of dogs whelped pups with the same fault at around the same time.
I am glad I had something to go by as the lab & shepherd do not share the same bloodline.
Most all my dogs that I breed are seen by me on a regular basis, I have used stud dogs
that I don't see on a regular basis but have common ancestors to the dogs that live with me.
I have bred out to different males that had different bloodlines/outcrossings for some new breeding stock and kept some of their
offspring only to be disappointed with the pups temperaments, and finding out later about health problems in the lines so I parted with them to
pet homes, as I don't want certain health issues coming back to haunt me.
One can not be sure that the person how owns the stud dog is being completely honest
about the dogs health background or for that matter if they even know about any health issues within 3 or more generations back, one breeder that has been in breeding dogs longer than I have did not know what DM was, that had me quite dumb founded to say the least.
Would I breed to the dog that had allergies and is now ok, no, only because I have not
owned the dog from day one and it lives in a different town than I so I don't know about
environmental influences, I can not weigh the pro's & con's as I don't have first hand knowledge.
If out of a litter of 12 someone had HD, I would say that was normal as the odds are
1 out of 10 pups is going to have something, and HD is a combination of both genetic and environmental.
I also breed labs, and one year my lab & shepherd had pups 2 days apart, I had them on kibble
dog food at the time, both were a repeat breeding I had used the same stud for each before and had beautiful healthy pups, but this one time things were different....out of each litter the lab had 2 pups out of 8 with noticeable overbites, and the shepherd had 2 pups out of 8 with overbites,
the only thing I could account for was the dog food, so I never used that brand again, but who
knows, it could of been in the water that year.
I just found it very strange that two different breeds of dogs whelped pups with the same fault at around the same time.
I am glad I had something to go by as the lab & shepherd do not share the same bloodline.
by SitasMom on 11 July 2012 - 16:07
I read an interesting article about intestinal infections, worms and misdiagnosed symptoms.
don't have access to much internet right now, (in the colorado back country) so can't supply a link, sorry.
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