How do I raise a confident dog - Page 5

<^>^<>^ that!

djc wrote:

Those are the Sch/IPO dogs that keep looking back for their handler instead of guarding the bad guy!!! I stand by my statement of 90/10 or 80/20 at the most.

Yes, I'm a bit late to the game, but after reading through some
great comments and not so great, there are a couple that
jumped out as utter crap.

First one-the above comment by djc.
Do you seriously believe  that?
I hope you will clarify that comment. If you are referring
to the often seen 'shoulder check' by most SchH dogs,
then I think you are mistaking some hard handling, (usually a
bunch of pressure applied to clean up the dog in the blind).

If you meant it in reference to what is usually seen in the
Seiger shows, then yes, I can agree with your statement. 
Those dogs tend to look like they are ready to head for the 
hills rather than stay with the man.

But a dog that is shoulder checking for his handler while guarding?
Thats usually a dog 'telling on' it's handler to the world.
It's the equivalent of the dog saying- I've had my ass kicked in
this blind one too many times.


maywood wrote:

It's easy!  Plain and simple, never hit the dog or try to dominate them.  They instinctively know you are the alpha and no amount of beating on them will instill that any further.  You have to be confident and secure in yourself and the dog will pick up on that and act accordingly.  Also, this is not a shepherd thing it is a basic dog thing.  Dog's observe us much more than we observe them, so much so you won't even realize it.  A dog will only be as confident as the owner I have noticed.  Socialization has nothing to do with it

Maywood, with all due respect, do you truly believe what you wrote?
All I can say is, I hope you never get a truly ALPHA dog, you will be 
in for a world of surprise.  

To the OP, read and reread what Gustav, Red Sable, Rass
and Chaz have written. 

Always always start with a gentically solid/sound puppy,
the rest will come with ease, and come very naturally.

You cannot 'make' solid temperment in a weak puppy,
you can mask issues, and the more talented the handler,
the more 'solid' the puppy will appear. A sound puppy should 
basically strut through life thinking everything in the world
is normal, if something does startle him (again, normal), 
it is how that puppy reacts/recovers that will speak huge
volumes about his genetics.

You cannot force a dog/puppy to have solid nerve, it has to
be 'wired' in to him from conception.
Can you screw up a solid puppy? Sure, but it usually takes
something pretty extreme/traumatic to do that.

No matter the pedigree of your pup, all lines, working or
show can and DO produce nerve issues. Those that don't
believe that are living right smack dab in the State of Denial
The degree to which those issues affect the dogs daily existence
is determined by how thin the nerves are.  

Dogs can appear to be rock solid in many ways,
then something, some issue will throw them off their game.

It may be that 16 mos old male that is almost ready to
be sold to a PD, but, oh--ooops, he 'hesitates' just
every so briefly at a slick floor or a dark entrance.

It may be the dogs ability to navigate stairs, do they
walk up and down with sureness or do they scrabble?
It's one thing for a dog to have to 'learn' to navigate
stairs-ie one at a time-, or perhaps it's a big lanky
youngster that really has no clue where all his
body parts are, but once they have gone up and down a set 
of stairs a few times, well, they should 'get it'.

The dog that continues to hesitate/scrabble?
He's telling you something about his nerve.
It's up to the handler to spot these things and
be honest about what they have. 

Just get your puppy out to see the world, let
him show you what worries him and what doesn't.
He doesn't have to be mauled by everyone, but it
certainly won't hurt him to meet people, places and
things. The big difference is, with a genetically SOLID
puppy, you don't have to..

I think the OP will be able to go from here....and that's the important thing.

Utter crap huh?  That's quite the bold statement to make pal!
 
Well I have owned and worked with many types of dogs in my lifetime and I'm pretty confident I have experienced my fair share of "TRULY ALPHA DOGS" (whatever that means).  The context in which I made my comment is referring to those that are raising a normal puppy from scratch as the OP indicates.  If you are referring to the high drive, whacked out dogs that are handler aggressive as being "TRULY ALPHA DOGS" well then I guess we are speaking a totally different language.  IMO those dogs are NOT genetically sound and come with way too many mental problems to be a part of any family home.  Bully for you if you enjoy having to beat on these types of dogs to gain Alpha status.
 
But in general layman's terms, I think it's fair to say 99.9% of all dogs born in the world come with a clean slate.  Nature through thousands upon thousands of years of domestication has instilled in 'Man's Best Friend' the innate instinct that we are the Alpha.  And as I said, no amount of beating on them is going to instill that any further.
 
I disagree with those that combine and relate confidence and socialization.  Socialization is wonderful and necessary and gives the dog experience in relating to its surroundings in the world but it has nothing to do with a dog's confidence.  Confidence has everything to do with how the dog is raised and treated by its owner.  If the owner treats the dog with respect and gives them much love & attention combined with lots of praise that really is all there is to raising a confident dog.  You guys with your long, technically savvy dictations are making this much more complicated than it needs to be.

@ Maywood, I have been called into many homes where the dog has been treated eminently, and yet they are calling me because once the dog leaves their property, or has to go into basement at home, or has to go upstairs, the dog lacks confidence big time. I mean some of these places treat their dogs better than people, where do you think the lack of confidence is coming from???

 It is the old argument of nature vs. nurture.
 
I have two dogs and neither was handled harshly.  The older dog (5 year ASL) is more confident than the younger dog (2 year WGSL) by a long shot.. and I would not describe EITHER dog as "confident" in spite of a ton of socialization and exposure to new experiences in the most positive way. 

In both cases I have seen siblings and dam and all I can say is the apple did not fall far from the tree. 

I have also had the great pleasure of watching WL dam and sire siblings working and learning IPO of late.. and again.. the apple does not fall far from the tree. 

I used to think that training and handling "made the dog."  I do not think that anymore. 

Genetics is a HUGE factor in temperament as well as structure.

maywood wrote:

Utter crap huh?  That's quite the bold statement to make pal!   Well I have owned and worked with many types of dogs in my lifetime and I'm pretty confident I have experienced my fair share of "TRULY ALPHA DOGS" (whatever that means).  The context in which I made my comment is referring to those that are raising a normal puppy from scratch as the OP indicates.  If you are referring to the high drive, whacked out dogs that are handler aggressive as being "TRULY ALPHA DOGS" well then I guess we are speaking a totally different language.  IMO those dogs are NOT genetically sound and come with way too many mental problems to be a part of any family home.  Bully for you if you enjoy having to beat on these types of dogs to gain Alpha status.

Actually, yes, what you wrote about a dog simply 'feeding off the owner'
and 'knowing they are alpha and will respect them' is crap.

And who said anything about anyone wanting/having to beat on a dog? or
for that matter, 'high drive whacked out handler aggressive dogs'?

If you don't know that a dog can be alpha in nature but still be able to
function and work with people, well, nuff said my friend.

I think you are right, we are speaking a totally different language,
so we'll have to agree to disagree.




 

@Gustav
Well, not knowing the situation at all, I would venture a guess it has to be the owners own lack of confidence in themselves that is causing this behavior.  For example, Master Owner is sitting in his recliner reading the paper with Fido lying down next to the chair.  Someone knocks at the door and the jittery Owner flies out of the chair startled by the intrusion.  Dogs pick up on that shit while the Owner is totally unaware of it.  The Owner then blames the dog's lack of confidence on the dog's genetics when indeed it's the Owners own lack of confidence the dog is learning.  Nothing you can do about that though Gustav. That's just the way it is.  Dogs are constantly focused on us more so than we even realize.  Most people take this for granted I think.
 
One of my favorite quotes that relates directly to this topic I'm sure you can appreciate.
 
                "Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are." ~Captain Max von Stephanitz

               
@workingdogz
Oh I'm sure from your POV you deal with "TRULY ALPHA DOGS" (that’s a good name for them I guess) all the time and have managed to get along quite well with them.  In fact, I bet your one of those trainers who is so far into them you couldn't even train a normal dog anymore.  This is the problem when beginners try to take a normal German shepherd dog to the schutzhund field.  They run into guys like you who have totally forgotten how to train them and subsequently ruins them.  I have seen this so many times it isn't even funny.
 
But you should, if you can, try to consider the audience you are speaking to and keep in mind that you are working with a very different animal bred for a very specific purpose that the average Joe rarely needs in a family situation where children are involved.  That "Alpha in nature" is a bunch of nonsense because these types of dogs end up competing with the children in establishing pack dominance.  They become a huge liability/risk and have no business being in the family home.
 
Don't necessarily disagree with some of the things you said though if that makes you feel any better.

@ Maywood, you really think all these owners are jittery lounge chair people???? How about the many many many lounge chair people who have confident dogs?   OK, you win, people's handling of dogs is main catalyst to confident dogs....see folks I learned something today.
Thanks!

HaHa!  Love it Gustav. 

BTW Maywood, a handler aggressive dog is not necessarily a confident dog.