Fun with show toons - Page 3

"Hard to see how "training" works out to be a breed test, isn't it? Test the dog's training to see its genetics? That'll only help a little."



Yes!

Jeff, VM and other workingline people...

    What is it exactly with workingline people, do guys not think we can have the whole package?......As I asked Jeff, are there any showline GSD's that the workingline people approve of??.....Just curious...

     

"Jeff, that was Schaefermeister Manfred Heyne."

Not to speak ill of the dead, but the late Mr. Heyne certainly was a master of the story about himself.  It seems too that the guy never bred a dog he didn't like and never met a competitor whom he would not disparage in some fashion.  For me, that took away from what otherwise was a good message.

 "What is it exactly with workingline people, do guys not think we can have the whole package?"

The workingline people already think they have the whole package - or at least think they know what the whole package should be - and see no particularly good reason for dogs to be shown.  

Given some of the results of the past 30 years of showline breeding, they may have a point.

       Well, there is good reason for dogs to be shown, it's fun...: )

       I really want my question answered...I mean this in the nicest way...Are there any show line GSD's that working line people think make good representations of the breed in type and temperament??

      

In all honest truth, I have never seen one. That does not mean there are none, it just means that I think breeders focus too much on "pretty" (which sadly is NOT STANDARDIZABLE, no matter what proponents say). I would never choose the puppy  out of a litter that was fairly pretty and worked well; that's just half baked no matter what. I'd choose the ugly one that worked like a hornet (why? because looks are easy to improve in the next generation but temperament is not). In the unlikely event that a puppy breeder or chooser hasn't let looks get in the way, I guess it's possible that a dog would be both a show-looking dog and a major worker . I have HEARD of some. I have just never actually seen one. To me, if it's that rare, something is wrong. In the mean time, I will keep breeding working lines that are CORRECT without being "gorgeous." Gorgeous, as we know from looking at art history, CHANGES depending on the time period and the person making the product. Lots of people thought Brittney Spears was the height of beauty a few years back, but now she just looks silly and is mocked. Same thing happens to every fad. It becomes a laughing stock eventually. Well, I'm going with good old solid instead  (keeping in mind that I do not actually believe that showlines dogs are the prettier ones; just not my taste).

What happens in the real world is that genetics begin to link up. For example, a while back cocker people were having a problem with "intermittent rage" in buffs. It had become a color linked trait. Lots of working lines fans now think that ability to work is becoming a color linked trait; you want a worker, pick sable or bi or blanketback. I have no idea if it's true, but in my experience black and red has become linked to INability to work. That's because when a dog is bred only for color, the other stuff fades out of the genetics. Add to this the obsession with overangulation, overly steep stop, and a load of other things, and who has time for temperament...it's really relegated to low importance.

People who rant about their showlines dogs' fantastic drives have always disappointed me. Every single time. I'm FINE with showlines dogs being companions and have no doubt that they are good at it, and I have no doubt there are showlines dogs that are OK at working, but even in working lines it's hard to get a crazy-good litter. In showlines you can just get OK. If you don't believe me, try being on the other end of a leash of a psycho REALLY drivey dog. Just TRY it.

Nobody says all working lines dogs are fantastic, but the percentages are WAAAAAY higher. Only the occasional showlines dog works great, and that is why they are called SHOWLINES and not WORKING lines.

And then everybody gets cranky and complains that "who would want to live with a working lines dog in the house." ME. They are great. They nearly ALL have off switches; nobody wants to compete with a dog that cannot control itself. They just are not slugs, that's all, and that's the way I like it.

But that's just me, and I don't really care what other people have, and I don't look down on people with showlines dogs...until they start insisting that theirs is one of the good ones. And it never is.

Quote: 

I really want my question answered...I mean this in the nicest way...Are there any show line GSD's that working line people think make good representations of the breed in type and temperament??

Quote: 
I have seen showdogs that look like this with good character and drive, but their body fails them.

I guess that skimming thing didn't work out for you so well this time. LOL Page 1 baby page 1. There are a lot of versions of show dogs here in the states. A lot of people recognize that what they are doing is failing miserably, so they are brining down the good side of the GSD by breeding them to their shit. LOL We have had this conversation before.

It is hard enough to do this shit with dogs bred for work, I do not see how some of you don't get that. LOL Do you just NEVER see dogs worked ? I am serious. I hear about all the sch line GSDs that can do ring, and it's like saying that is somehow good enough. How great would that be if it were true, but again, lets look at reality. There are Sch line pedigrees in dogs doing ringsport, sometimes ONLY Sch in there. Then you watch the dog work, and realize just how good his training was, as the dog is pathetic. He does the exercises, but will never make it out of the club, and this is a dog from a good solid working pedigree.

Now look at showlines. Ask any of these mental wizards protecting the showlines to show you a video of their work. It is always crap. 

Can you imagine if a chevette salesman used the terminology that formula one racers used to describe his car ?? We would all find that amusing. Show line breeders use the same terminology that is used to describe high speed dogs to describe their dogs. 

"POWERFUL RED AND BLACK STALLION TYPE MALE".

In your mind, after you read that, do you see the dogs from the video running away ?? Is that the performance that you see ? Of course not. But there they were, running off.

Fucking used car salesmen. 


Anytime anyone has a dog that they want to work that is a showline dog, I encourage you to go to a FR/MR club and take your dog. Give it a shot, then you will see for yourself. And don't get caught up in the "it is not a mal thing," there are plenty of shitter mals out there to choose from now as well.

Sunsilver I will read the article when I have time.  No one answered my question.  Did those dogs shown ( I dont know the names of the dogs to look for myself) Pass the courage test?  Yes I still believe in training!!!  Did you see that one poor male?  Looked like he had the living shit knocked out of him before he went on the feild.  Ears pinned back, no confidence. If someone knocked the stuffin out of me before I went out to perform I would be rattled, and I consider myself to have exceptional temperment :) Yes I know working line breeders will say. well you should be able to knock the tar out of them and still have them work.  I disagree handler sensitivity is very important to me. Sorry Jeff Griff, was not on the video I will see if I can find one of him working. He really is a nice dog!  Karen has done wonderfully with him.   I think balance is the key in the world of shepherds.  At this time we have none of it.  Showlines can be too soft or when they do have over the top drive can be to sharp.  Workinglines are getting rediculasly huge (95 pounds is just way to much dog) and can have zero handler sensitivity.  I have had good and bad in both here for training.  There are crap dogs out there that is for sure, but in all lines.  Just had a 110 pound male arrive I just can not believe anyone would want a dog this big for work.  He is a nice dog temperment wise but good lord. 

Brynjulf, then you are picking working lines dogs that are not bred for CORRECTNESS.

The fact that working sheepherding dogs with an HGH have their own separate conformation class at the annual Sieger Show in Germany because they are typically skinny from all the work they do and don't have plush pampered coats and thus can't compete with the show dogs is indicative of the problem.

I mean, seriously: the few dogs left that still do the original work of the breed aren't the best example of the breed?  WTF?