Fun with show toons - Page 19

Not the same thing at all, now are they, yet, what we are talking about are supposed to be all the same breed.
 

But really, they're not, because when combined they won't breed true to type.  Sure, in their first generation, they might appear more uniform in appearance, temperament and drives.  But by the F2 generation, you'll end up with results all over the place.  The question that should be asked, is why are they not seperate breeds?!  And which side should retain the original breed name.  You want the universal type from the sixties?  There should be no problem achieving that from strictly workingline stock, and less trouble trying to maintain your lines, than trying to insert something that isn't already there.

LOL Daryl. There'd be two separate breeds with the same standard, and afficianados of each side would believe they are breeding to that standard. And yet there'd be two entirely different types of dogs standing before you.

Aren't most showlines oversized?  Wouldn't they be more comfortable changing their standard to actually reflect what they're breeding with?  Other than height and weight, most standards are so loosely defined, and subject to personal opinion.  But, in most cases, a breed can at least be defined by it's genepool, and show and working genepools are distinctly different, in general.  But, I think you're right.

I am actually a little baffled by the height and weight standards as well. My working lines females are about two inches over the standard LOL. So I'm just as bad. Ally is nearly twenty pounds over the standard. The standard doesn't really seem to reflect MOST gsds today. When I take Liz out, and she is 24" and about 70 lbs, people think she's tiny. Yet she is at the very tip top of the standard, and in fact slightly over the height max. I don't know very many people who are breeding "small" females (meaning 48 to 70 lbs), except that female Pike progeny seem to be more correct than most. Size-wise, anyhow.

Daryl,

You said:

"they might appear more uniform in appearance, temperament and drives.  But by the F2 generation, you'll end up with results all over the place."

Three questions please:

1. When you cross work with show and you get first generation litter and you choose say a male with good conformation and improved temperament and drives and then when he is adult you breed him to a show girl with good conformation and good show temperament and then you continue to choose best male and so on and after few generations you repeat the outcross as in first breeding above, does your above quote apply to this case?

2. When you cross work with show and take a good specimen and you again breed it to a (show work cross), do you think one may wind up with un expected temperament? and I am concerned here about dangerous temperament or trait, like unfriendliness, tendency to bite etc.

3. In continuation to above 2nd question how do you explain how the first GSDs were created? didn't Max breed various dogs of various traits and build to develop our present GSD?

P.s: Unfriendliness = Unfriendliness towards human
Ibrahim

Ibrahim, do you think working lines dogs are dangerous? Just curious.

No not at all, they have good strong temperament, my question is about the resulting temperament when crossed with show, see what Daryl said:

 because when combined they won't breed true to type.  Sure, in their first generation, they might appear more uniform in appearance, temperament and drives.  But by the F2 generation, you'll end up with results all over the place.



Ibrahim

I don't expect nor want my dogs to be friendly, I guess that is part of the problem here.  We all think the temperament should be different things.

Temperament I do not want to see is friendly like a Golden, skittish, (spooks easily, cowardly) and so soft so that you can't look at them sternly without them slinking.

A little sharpness doesn't bother me, actually I like it as long as it doesn't come with cowardliness. I like natural aggression.

What kind of temperaments does everyones dog here have? What kind of temperament do you think they should have?  And who actually thinks their dogs have the correct GSD temperament?

I meant, and I apologize for not stating it correct, I meant unfriendly to human in general. Now to answer your question I think a GSD should be friendly and loyal to its owners and indifferent to strangers and intelligently suspicious but not agressive.

When trained it should have strong heart and nerve to investigate, search, bite on command and protect its family and property when need arises. That is in theory but not all GSDs rise up to these qualities, not the work ones too.

Ibrahim

Well here is my take on it.

Ibrahim, my females have great temperament as far as I am concerned, and I would never breed them to a showlines dog. Who with the ideal temperament would be tempted to BREED DOWN?

I guess that's what showlines people would say about conformation. Why would they breed to my girl, when her puppies will not contribute to a progeny list that's winning in shows?

It took 50 years for the two lines to separate (three lines if you count ASS) and might take a really long time to recombine. 

I don't think either the people who value temperament or the people who value looks would be willing to give up their ideal.