Brindle Gsd! Did Not Think This Was Possible! - Page 11

Ok, on a note back to the original website.
We had new training clients call last week for an evaluation appointment. The people kept insisting the dog was imported Czech and German bloodlines. Ok, cool, there are quite a few people in the Atlanta/North Georgia area with nice dogs so I guessed the pup came from someone in one of the other local SchH clubs. I told them to bring their paperwork (meaning shot records) and had them come in. 
Well, when they got out of the car, from 50 feet away I tell my husband that the pup is spooky and fairly unfortunate looking, a badly marked black and red blanket back. 
When she brings me the papers, she also very proudly hands me the pedigree. I look at it and don't see any thing but American named dogs for at least 3 generations and then see 1 Czech dog and 1 German kennel name in the 4th gen. 
Get this, the dam is from the kennel in the OPs first post and is a blue! The sire was under 2yo at the time of the breeding so of course no OFA certs. The hip guarantee was pretty useless and totally one sided, of course. 
Needless to say I was disgusted, and pretty irked since these people totally believed they'd bought the best their money could buy. 
I didn't bother to tell the people that they'd been totally ripped off. In 20 years of training, the one thing I have learned is if you insult the puppy in any way you will never see them again. I'd rather they at least love the puppy and get excited about training. If they do well then all the better.
So anyway, when I got back to my computer I had to check out the website. So the breeder the pup came from and the breeder in the first post have some sort of relationship in that they seem to breed back and forth. The business card on the folder said "Specializing in the finest imported Czech and German bloodlines", sigh.

That dog doesn't look like a Dutchie mix to me. It looks like a Giant Chihuahua. A King Chihuahua? 

I'm not sure I'd trust a book by Purina for info about GSDs....

Malcom Willis says in his GSD genetics books that the brindle, dominant black, and merle colors were bred out of the breed--but he didn't have the internet and the broad exposure to images and information for so many different dogs from so many different areas of the world.

I think we can safely say that merle has been bred out--since it shows up by diluting the black colored areas, it must have always been pretty easy to identify and select away from. And perhaps brindle and dominant black were bred out and re-introduced by either deliberate or "oops" out-breedings to, perhaps, a Dutch Shepherd or a Groenendal. Or perhaps they did manage to remain hidden within various genetic tidepools of the breed.

I've seen enough cases/pictures of brindle GSDs that I am sure that there are dogs who are from generations of  dogs who are AKC registered with the brindle coming down through registered dogs.

Yes, in some cases, the gene could be hidden in the working lines by black dogs and dark sables, or perhaps even dark bicolors. But you'd have to think it would be exceedingly uncommon in dogs from top breeders in Europe or the US as it is not an accepted color under any GSD breed standard and any dog who obviously possessed the factor (or passed it on to his/her progeny--which would show up pretty clearly in any black-tan patterned dog) would be removed from the breeding pool in most of Europe (although, the dog would probably be sold to the U.S. or UK to "special rare color!!!!" breeders).

The fact is, we will never know where the brindle gene comes from--I'd be willing to bet there are more cases of it coming from a "registered" mix breeding (think how many puppy mill dogs had AKC papers yet are obviously not purebred) than there are cases of brindles coming from generations of breed surveyed ancestors. And I think both of these options are more likely than a spontaneous mutation that mimics the brindle coloring but just happens to be recessive to the A locus.

Christine

For those of you who are responsible breeders of GSD, I applaude you. For those of you who love the breed and work with them, I appluade you. Please don't take offense at this post.

I rescue dogs that are difficult to place. In the south, dogs that are large and dark colored are difficult to place. Roxy was an owner turn in at a local animal control. They could no longer care for her, and they, like many others, took her there thinking she would be adopted. They referred to her as a "silver" shepherd, which I had never seen or heard of before. She would have been euthanized, papers or no. Lucky for her, I was able to take her. I did not look at the documents because I don't care about that. I care about the dog. I take dogs that have no one else. She has been spayed and breeding her never crossed my mind. I see so many homeless dogs put down that I can help, so I can't add to the population.

I get frustrated reading statements that a color/pattern is "extinct" because it hasn't been seen in many years. She may well be mixed somewhere in her bloodline and that is fine with me. She has all the other characteristics one would expect in a well-bred GSD. Please try to keep an open mind. Breed characteristics can change over the years. If a color was bred out, it can be bred back in. Just my 2 cents worth. 

When you see newer breeds people try to create over the years once you seem to get a uniform standard & bred to this standard something surprising seems to happen by the 7th+ generation.
You start to get structure / colors cropping up from generations prior. At this point it's easy to help breed out the resurface genes from the breed. You see this with longer coat Mastiffs / Bull Mastiffs,
the original Mastiff was created by dogs with thicker coats. Every once in a while you'll see a puppy born with this thicker coat or solid black / blue colors.
I'm sure a odd color can pop up in the GSD's from many generations back, but doubt this will happen often enough to take notice or able to start a breeding program to enable this hidden genes to surface.


Years ago a man brought in some puppies he produced from his GSD's purebred litter. The puppies were mostly black & tan but had brindle markings on their legs & stomachs.
He was very upset & wanted to hide the fact that his dogs produced this odd looking pup's. He left them at the shelter to be adopted out & requested they be listed as GSD mixes.
I was a volunteer at the shelter was not able to ask him to many questions, but he brought pictures of the dam & sire both pure GSD's black & tan / red coloring. I have no idea
on pedigree, but was told the parents were well bred dogs. The man was very shocked. He said the dogs were kept in their kennels with solid flooring & roof, so could not be mixes.
If his story was true then it did happen about 25 years ago. The puppies did look like pure GSD's as puppies. 

In terms of mutations, most of the coloration in domestic dogs has come from a mutation somewhere along the line. While I fully believe a brindle-appearance can crop up, the thing that makes me cautious is a whole slew of exotic funky colours popping up in the same place at the same time. That to me would indicate clandestine outcrossing.

Do spontaneous mutations occur by the litterfull? Or would it be a solitary puppy, normally?

I'm no expert here but I can't see how a mutation could occur to affect a whole litter.  New mutations that occur spontaneously, like the panda, occur in the new fertilised egg and so affect just that one individual, and can be passed on by that individual.

The case of the black/brindle litter of GSDs, just trying to work out what colour sire would produce that to a B&T dam.   Some possibilities (and I'm thinking of an oops litter here, not GSD sire) a dominant black dog that carried tanpoint and brindle, but unlikely to get a whole litter of B&Br from this... or from a dog that actually was black & brindle.  Not a common pattern in any breed, it does occasionally occur in Cardigan Corgis.

Wlkoorr, I think your striped pup could be something I've seen in newborns in other breeds.  The striped effect is actually caused by the direction of the lie of the coat.  A sable has either black tipped or longer black hairs and the black pigment lies in folds to give the appearance of stripes.  Not sure what causes it, could be extra loose skin on some pups, or just the lie of the coat.  It does  dissappear after a week or so.

In pups of dilute colours it doesn't always need the two types of pigment to be present for it to be visible as the lilac pigment in this weimaraner litter shows.  This is a good breed to show that this can't possibly be brindle because brindle is specifically stripes of eumelanin on phaeomelanin background.  Phaeomelanin doesn't appear in the Weimaraner coat.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/82735078@N00/120993056/