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by Superdog on 27 October 2009 - 16:10
Good afternoon Everyone.
The Finnish group are now working to establish a accurate way for a firm link to this problem of Epilepsy.
A marker as I said was found this in detail is too complecated to explain, but it appears that for want of a better explanation is a gene which is breaking down.
A test to establish how badly the animal has it which has already had a seizure is available by blood test.
There is also a graph available for again the animal which has had it.
The full details are in the Seiger supp. coming out on 30th Oct. The short explanation is there are 5 genes which appear to be in some cases damaged. It means the weakness is causing problems and this is why, it appears not every time. These are also causing other problems in the GSD.
The DNA the KC is requesting is for breeding confirmation. i.e. if any query arises for identification purposes the dam and sire are registered. This is requested fort eh Accredited Scheme as a must.
The European research which the GSD Info Group has become involved with is much more detailed and selective.
This was the reason as to why healthy animals and well as animals with problems had to be involved.
So abnormalities could be seen.
I had no idea as to how involved it was and how problems have been followed up.
Obviously a test has to be found and this is one which is being worked on at present.
The D.M (CDRM) on is available already through the Info Group. The test is FREE but we would request a small donation for further GSD research.
Anal Furunculosis is also going forth in leaps and bounds.
Regards the JRD test, 4 of the Professors and Mr J Sampson approached Dogenes for exactly as you suggested but the request was refused.
The pattent has been registered by them and it appears they wish to be in charge of their test.
I have approached my contacts for a suitable article but at present I have been given all relavent papers and have to try and inteprit the important parts into English which people can understand.
This is a very exciting time and support is really needed to make even more advancement of problems.
Please read the article and you will see just how far it has moved forward and what has been acheived.
There is also explanantion about EPI and EPC/ Bowel disorders etc.
Dorothy
The Finnish group are now working to establish a accurate way for a firm link to this problem of Epilepsy.
A marker as I said was found this in detail is too complecated to explain, but it appears that for want of a better explanation is a gene which is breaking down.
A test to establish how badly the animal has it which has already had a seizure is available by blood test.
There is also a graph available for again the animal which has had it.
The full details are in the Seiger supp. coming out on 30th Oct. The short explanation is there are 5 genes which appear to be in some cases damaged. It means the weakness is causing problems and this is why, it appears not every time. These are also causing other problems in the GSD.
The DNA the KC is requesting is for breeding confirmation. i.e. if any query arises for identification purposes the dam and sire are registered. This is requested fort eh Accredited Scheme as a must.
The European research which the GSD Info Group has become involved with is much more detailed and selective.
This was the reason as to why healthy animals and well as animals with problems had to be involved.
So abnormalities could be seen.
I had no idea as to how involved it was and how problems have been followed up.
Obviously a test has to be found and this is one which is being worked on at present.
The D.M (CDRM) on is available already through the Info Group. The test is FREE but we would request a small donation for further GSD research.
Anal Furunculosis is also going forth in leaps and bounds.
Regards the JRD test, 4 of the Professors and Mr J Sampson approached Dogenes for exactly as you suggested but the request was refused.
The pattent has been registered by them and it appears they wish to be in charge of their test.
I have approached my contacts for a suitable article but at present I have been given all relavent papers and have to try and inteprit the important parts into English which people can understand.
This is a very exciting time and support is really needed to make even more advancement of problems.
Please read the article and you will see just how far it has moved forward and what has been acheived.
There is also explanantion about EPI and EPC/ Bowel disorders etc.
Dorothy
by Videx on 27 October 2009 - 21:10
There are hundreds of organisations, many connected with universities RESEARCHING genetic aspects of canine epilepsy and hundreds of other canine diseases.
Here is just one report: more to follow.
First Canine Epilepsy Genes Found!
Researchers at the University of Missouri and University of Toronto heralded in the new year with the discovery of the first genes responsible for epilepsy syndromes in dogs. The reports identify the genes responsible for two rare epilepsy syndromes in dogs: myoclonic epilepsy and ceroid lipofuscinosis. Does this mean we will be able to now eliminate all epilepsy in dogs? No, it is an important first step, but these diseases differ in important ways from the more common form of epilepsy seen in other breeds. None-the-less, these reports demonstrate how the new knowledge of canine genomics can be used to find these disease causing genes. The first epilepsy gene to be discovered in people only caused epilepsy in an isolated fishing village in Finland. That breakthrough, however, led rapidly to discovery of other genes that caused epilepsy in other families. The identification of the cause of seizures in these two breed will hopefully lead to similar progress to solving the more difficult problem of epilepsy in other breeds.
There is this website: http://www.canine-epilepsy.net/grants.html
And this website: http://www.canine-epilepsy.com/genetics.html
And this one: http://www.canineepilepsy.co.uk/Research/dna.htm
And this one: http://www.amchessieclub.org/epilepsy.html
And this one: http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/epilepsy_research.htm
And many more, and also hundreds researching other diseases.
The two important things for breeders & owners are, to help where they can, and secondly finding those that DISCOVER a DNA Test for a disease. This will help Breeders, if they want to use the discovered DNA test, to control or eradicate the disease, if it exists in their particular breed.
Here is just one report: more to follow.
First Canine Epilepsy Genes Found!
Researchers at the University of Missouri and University of Toronto heralded in the new year with the discovery of the first genes responsible for epilepsy syndromes in dogs. The reports identify the genes responsible for two rare epilepsy syndromes in dogs: myoclonic epilepsy and ceroid lipofuscinosis. Does this mean we will be able to now eliminate all epilepsy in dogs? No, it is an important first step, but these diseases differ in important ways from the more common form of epilepsy seen in other breeds. None-the-less, these reports demonstrate how the new knowledge of canine genomics can be used to find these disease causing genes. The first epilepsy gene to be discovered in people only caused epilepsy in an isolated fishing village in Finland. That breakthrough, however, led rapidly to discovery of other genes that caused epilepsy in other families. The identification of the cause of seizures in these two breed will hopefully lead to similar progress to solving the more difficult problem of epilepsy in other breeds.
There is this website: http://www.canine-epilepsy.net/grants.html
And this website: http://www.canine-epilepsy.com/genetics.html
And this one: http://www.canineepilepsy.co.uk/Research/dna.htm
And this one: http://www.amchessieclub.org/epilepsy.html
And this one: http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/epilepsy_research.htm
And many more, and also hundreds researching other diseases.
The two important things for breeders & owners are, to help where they can, and secondly finding those that DISCOVER a DNA Test for a disease. This will help Breeders, if they want to use the discovered DNA test, to control or eradicate the disease, if it exists in their particular breed.
by Videx on 27 October 2009 - 21:10
Here is a website with NUMEROUS links. re "Canine Epilepsy"
http://www.berner.org/pages/neurological_disorders/canine_epilepsy_links.php
by Linern on 28 October 2009 - 04:10
Reading earlier posts on this thread the asylum must have given me a day pass to post my opinion ( everybody has one ! ).
Firstly I am not doubting the existence of JRD the same as numerous other kidney diseases but with the evidence given from the very few JRD diagnosed affected dogs there has been in the UK it leaves me with the feeling that there has also been other contributory factors involved that could have possibly enhanced the diagnosis of JRD in these cases. I say this purely because of the very low amount of incidents that have surfaced. Any other contributory factors there might be should be seen in all autopsy reports, for all we know they may be more of a danger lurking than JRD ??????.
David Payne has stated that he is in possession of the identity of other known JRD carriers but has been sworn to secrecy. Even though these other carrier dogs may not be used for breeding the parentage of these dogs is still unknown to us all. It is certainly not helping anybody with their future breeding plans by being kept in the dark regarding these unknown carrier bloodlines, and neither is it helping the German Shepherd Breed !. If I can publicise the result of the caliber and bloodlines of Zasko then I'm dammed sure other owners of carriers could do the same !.
As far as Zasko is concerned, even after being told by professors AND genetic scientists NOT to withdraw him from stud, since receiving his test result and to date I have only ( at the moment ) allowed him to be used on JRD tested clear Females, ONLY to save him from further derogatory remarks and NOT because I think there is anything wrong with him and NOT because I think he is producing ailing progeny !!!!. Zasko is 9 years old in a few weeks time, he is as fit as a fiddle and as healthy and happy as he always has been in the 4.yrs I have owned him, he has plenty of stamina and still works brilliantly and thoroughly enjoys it too !, and yes I am aware that JRD carriers don't always show any signs of illness but never the less I am stating facts, also Zasko's kidney function tests are perfect and have not deteriorated in the slightest !. I personally do not know of any of his progeny to have had any kidney problems of any description which I do find very strange given the amount of his progeny and grand progeny there is but on the law of averages alone there may be some somewhere, despite David's scientific statistics I still find it odd, so where are they and who are they ?, if there is any that should come to light please let us know but let us not forget they will also have a Mother which brings me to my next point. Zasko has been tested as a JRD carrier by the Dogenes company which in theory means that one of his very famous parents being Yasko Vom Farbenpiel and Uli Von Santamar would be carrying JRD. As you all know both Zasko's parents also come from a long line of very famous ancestors, all of these dogs have produced many many progeny all over the world which in turn have also produced the same. We all know that certain hereditary health problems have been brushed under the carpet and hidden enough times over the years and still are being, something I fear that will never change !. I do though have to doubt that this could happen and go unnoticed with these bloodlines for all this time, there would be far too many for anyone to hide all of them so in this case I think much further investigation is needed.
I will finalise my post by saying that IF a test for JRD should ever become available in the UK ( which is looking doubtful ), and IF all dogs tested were to be identified and samples taken by a veterinary surgeon and IF all results were listed for all to see I will be first in the queue !!!!!.
I wonder how man
Firstly I am not doubting the existence of JRD the same as numerous other kidney diseases but with the evidence given from the very few JRD diagnosed affected dogs there has been in the UK it leaves me with the feeling that there has also been other contributory factors involved that could have possibly enhanced the diagnosis of JRD in these cases. I say this purely because of the very low amount of incidents that have surfaced. Any other contributory factors there might be should be seen in all autopsy reports, for all we know they may be more of a danger lurking than JRD ??????.
David Payne has stated that he is in possession of the identity of other known JRD carriers but has been sworn to secrecy. Even though these other carrier dogs may not be used for breeding the parentage of these dogs is still unknown to us all. It is certainly not helping anybody with their future breeding plans by being kept in the dark regarding these unknown carrier bloodlines, and neither is it helping the German Shepherd Breed !. If I can publicise the result of the caliber and bloodlines of Zasko then I'm dammed sure other owners of carriers could do the same !.
As far as Zasko is concerned, even after being told by professors AND genetic scientists NOT to withdraw him from stud, since receiving his test result and to date I have only ( at the moment ) allowed him to be used on JRD tested clear Females, ONLY to save him from further derogatory remarks and NOT because I think there is anything wrong with him and NOT because I think he is producing ailing progeny !!!!. Zasko is 9 years old in a few weeks time, he is as fit as a fiddle and as healthy and happy as he always has been in the 4.yrs I have owned him, he has plenty of stamina and still works brilliantly and thoroughly enjoys it too !, and yes I am aware that JRD carriers don't always show any signs of illness but never the less I am stating facts, also Zasko's kidney function tests are perfect and have not deteriorated in the slightest !. I personally do not know of any of his progeny to have had any kidney problems of any description which I do find very strange given the amount of his progeny and grand progeny there is but on the law of averages alone there may be some somewhere, despite David's scientific statistics I still find it odd, so where are they and who are they ?, if there is any that should come to light please let us know but let us not forget they will also have a Mother which brings me to my next point. Zasko has been tested as a JRD carrier by the Dogenes company which in theory means that one of his very famous parents being Yasko Vom Farbenpiel and Uli Von Santamar would be carrying JRD. As you all know both Zasko's parents also come from a long line of very famous ancestors, all of these dogs have produced many many progeny all over the world which in turn have also produced the same. We all know that certain hereditary health problems have been brushed under the carpet and hidden enough times over the years and still are being, something I fear that will never change !. I do though have to doubt that this could happen and go unnoticed with these bloodlines for all this time, there would be far too many for anyone to hide all of them so in this case I think much further investigation is needed.
I will finalise my post by saying that IF a test for JRD should ever become available in the UK ( which is looking doubtful ), and IF all dogs tested were to be identified and samples taken by a veterinary surgeon and IF all results were listed for all to see I will be first in the queue !!!!!.
I wonder how man
by Linern on 28 October 2009 - 05:10
CONTINUED FROM ABOVE. For some reason it wouldn't let me edit the last sentence and wouldn't fit it all in so I'll try again.
I wonder how many of you have been using outside stud dogs that have in fact been tested as JRD carriers but unknowing to you !!!, no way of you knowing is there whilst results are being kept confidential or should I say meant to be kept confidential !. I can assure you that if I had kept Zasko's result confidential there would be plenty of people that would have used him unknowingly !!!!. Think about it !!!!.
IN MY OPINION NO HEALTH TESTS SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO BE KEPT SECRET UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES !!!!.
Please by all means email me if anyone wishes to do so.
Lynn.C.
I wonder how many of you have been using outside stud dogs that have in fact been tested as JRD carriers but unknowing to you !!!, no way of you knowing is there whilst results are being kept confidential or should I say meant to be kept confidential !. I can assure you that if I had kept Zasko's result confidential there would be plenty of people that would have used him unknowingly !!!!. Think about it !!!!.
IN MY OPINION NO HEALTH TESTS SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO BE KEPT SECRET UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES !!!!.
Please by all means email me if anyone wishes to do so.
Lynn.C.
by Videx on 28 October 2009 - 06:10
Lynn: I wish you had not tried to place doubts on the JRD DNA test finding carriers, both single mutation and double mutation carriers. People should spend their time understanding the JRD disease, its mode of inheritance, and therefore the degrees of kidney damage that can result, especially the very low levels. They should also understand the 'silent' threat it poses, and if unchecked, how it can spiral out of control within a breed. One only has to look at those breeds where it has done just that, and ask oneself, "how did it get so saturated in those breeds?".
Our breed is not JRD CLEAR, and thankfully our breed does not appear to have any obvious degree of wide spread saturation of JRD. BUT the question then arises, can we afford to ignore it?
If some people JRD Test and do not declare their results, then at least they know if they have an affected dog, and one can trust they will exercise some breeding plans in respect of this knowledge, otherwise why test? There have been many dogs over the years who have produced various problems, many have not come to light, some have been the subject of rumours, and even our Hip scheme is of very limited disclosure, because I am certain that the majority of GSD who show severe hip dysplasia on their x-ray, NEVER have their plates submitted for scoring.
It s funny how most of us know this, yet get very pinickity over NEW Health screening tests, and NEW DNA Tests, probably because their is NO opportunity of having a PREVIEW of the result and STOPPING it then and there, if it looks like a CARRIER result. Such concerns, and the fear of the unknown, and the multiple opportunities and ways of casting doubt, and those that simply want to carry on doing what they do in blissful ignorance of any problems, will always make many people comment negatively about new health screening tests, or completely ignore them, or do them secretly, or wait until a, b, c, d, e, f, etc. etc, is done or happens. This is normal human behaviour.
All I ask is that people try to resist the temptation of abusing those that do test, and do so publicly, and are open about it. I only published those pedigrees of JRD carriers where the owners gave me written permission to do that. It is unfortunate when owners of dogs within such pedigrees, particularly owners of the sire and dam, took offense, and then blamed me for damaging their dog. Just what was I supposed to do? Get their permission as well? I don't think so! This is another case of "shoot the messenger".
I have several anonymous and some not anonymous people attacking me and my dogs with lies and unsubstantiated allegations, as a direct result of what I have done in finding the JRD DNA Test and publishing some carriers details, with the owners permission. Graham Martin (JJ), a friend of John Robinson (Corjon) is just one example.
Ray Sullivan has been hounding me persistently, with spurious and exaggerated allegations, gleaned from liars and vindictive people, since I quite justifiably reported him to the Kennel Club, who found him guilty and punished him.
This is a real evil in our midst. Be aware such people simply drive me on with even more determination.
Our breed is not JRD CLEAR, and thankfully our breed does not appear to have any obvious degree of wide spread saturation of JRD. BUT the question then arises, can we afford to ignore it?
If some people JRD Test and do not declare their results, then at least they know if they have an affected dog, and one can trust they will exercise some breeding plans in respect of this knowledge, otherwise why test? There have been many dogs over the years who have produced various problems, many have not come to light, some have been the subject of rumours, and even our Hip scheme is of very limited disclosure, because I am certain that the majority of GSD who show severe hip dysplasia on their x-ray, NEVER have their plates submitted for scoring.
It s funny how most of us know this, yet get very pinickity over NEW Health screening tests, and NEW DNA Tests, probably because their is NO opportunity of having a PREVIEW of the result and STOPPING it then and there, if it looks like a CARRIER result. Such concerns, and the fear of the unknown, and the multiple opportunities and ways of casting doubt, and those that simply want to carry on doing what they do in blissful ignorance of any problems, will always make many people comment negatively about new health screening tests, or completely ignore them, or do them secretly, or wait until a, b, c, d, e, f, etc. etc, is done or happens. This is normal human behaviour.
All I ask is that people try to resist the temptation of abusing those that do test, and do so publicly, and are open about it. I only published those pedigrees of JRD carriers where the owners gave me written permission to do that. It is unfortunate when owners of dogs within such pedigrees, particularly owners of the sire and dam, took offense, and then blamed me for damaging their dog. Just what was I supposed to do? Get their permission as well? I don't think so! This is another case of "shoot the messenger".
I have several anonymous and some not anonymous people attacking me and my dogs with lies and unsubstantiated allegations, as a direct result of what I have done in finding the JRD DNA Test and publishing some carriers details, with the owners permission. Graham Martin (JJ), a friend of John Robinson (Corjon) is just one example.
Ray Sullivan has been hounding me persistently, with spurious and exaggerated allegations, gleaned from liars and vindictive people, since I quite justifiably reported him to the Kennel Club, who found him guilty and punished him.
This is a real evil in our midst. Be aware such people simply drive me on with even more determination.
by Linern on 28 October 2009 - 11:10
David. With all due respect this has nothing to do with who or why certain individuals are attacking you. Don't forget I know what it's like to be in the hot seat , remember I had threats on my life to keep my mouth shut about Haemophilia almost 20 years ago !!!!. So please don't put me in the category of being scared or shying away from new tests whatever they are, you should know me better than that David. Check on the dates of whose dogs who were amongst the first bunch to be submitted for Elbow scoring back in 1998...11 years ago, you will find my dogs there, so come on be fair !!!!!.
As I said at the beginning of my first post ..... I AM NOT DOUBTING THE EXISTENCE OF JRD. All I am saying is that I feel there is room for further investigation into other contributory factors surrounding any deaths of dogs that are diagnosed with JRD.
I also think more thought should have been put into the conditions of doing the test especially as it is such a complicated disease.
I do admit that had Zasko been a young dog of mediocre bloodlines with little progeny I would have been more convinced as to the severity of the spreading of the disease but as it stands with Zasko at the moment it seems there is more chance of me getting run over crossing the road !. ( yes I know that can be arranged so no wise cracks ).
As with any dogs death unless the cause is cut and dried, there can always be mitigating circumstances of which can have knock on effects with many ailments which sometimes but not always show up in autopsy's.
Dogenes their self don't help matters either with their result certification......a shoddy photostat copy with not even a company logo or address on it !. I know you will say that doesn't change the result but it doesn't promote a good company either does it. Anyway there is no point in arguing. I'm sure more people will do the test but Dogenes need to smarten their act up somewhat and there needs to be a list of tested dogs available , if not the carriers there needs to be a list of all the clear tested dogs which would also help promote the test.
Lynn.C.
by Videx on 28 October 2009 - 11:10
Lynn: You should read my previous post more carefully and more objectively. I never accused you of attacking me ( your response on this aspect simply allowed you to get your own similar experience into your comment)
You are now into 'semantics' always a sign of being 'pinickity' - commenting on the petty and the doubts, rather than the hard cold facts.
JRD is NOT a complicated disease, it is very simple and now with the JRD DNA Test, it is very simple to control and eradicate in breeds that are not saturated with it.
JRD damages kydneys to varying degrees of severity, those with low level damage survive, those with high level damage die, thankfully deaths are apparently a minority in GSD. (deaths in the womb and still born may be a more serious concern))
1) Matings of JRD Clear to JRD Clear - will always produce JRD CLEAR offspring. No need to test.
2) Matings of JRD Carrier (single) to JRD Clear - could produce some JRD clear (test & choose from the clear for breeding)
3) Mating of JRD Carrier (single) to JRD Carrier (single) could produce some JRD clear, some JRD carriers and some JRD homozygotes (double) - test &choose from the clear for breeding. If no clear choose from the carriers (single) and follow '2' above process when breeding from the carrier.
4) Mating JRD Homozygote (double) to JRD Clear - will produce ALL JRD carriers (single) - no need to test, select one and follow '2' above process when breeding from the carrier.
5) Mating JRD Homozygote (double) to a JRD Carrier (single) - could produce JRD Carriers (single) and JRD Homozygote (double) - test and choose from the JRD Carriers (single) and then follow '2' above when breeding from it.
6) Mating JRD Homozygote (double) to JRD Homozygote (double) - will always produce JRD Homozygote (double) - such a mating should NOT be done.
You cannot treat Hip Dysplasia and other diseases this way and eradicate them from GSD.
This is the value of DNA Tests, with some diseases, like JRD, it will be possible to control and eradicate some of them by DNA Testing and breeding practices.
Currently with the apparent low level of JRD Testing in our breed, stud dogs that are not JRD tested will be used by kennels that are mating JRD Tested (Clear) females. The approach I will have when I do this, as when I use a German untested stud dog, will be to place a breeding restriction on the whole litter when I register them, which will be removed when they are JRD tested Clear by their owners who wish to breed from them (including those I retain). Or have ALL the puppies JRD Tested myself (a bit expensive). A GSD Breed Council scheme which could BULK buy the JRD tests, and make the results PUBLIC, could make the JRD Tests much cheaper, possibly up to 40% cheaper.
You are now into 'semantics' always a sign of being 'pinickity' - commenting on the petty and the doubts, rather than the hard cold facts.
JRD is NOT a complicated disease, it is very simple and now with the JRD DNA Test, it is very simple to control and eradicate in breeds that are not saturated with it.
JRD damages kydneys to varying degrees of severity, those with low level damage survive, those with high level damage die, thankfully deaths are apparently a minority in GSD. (deaths in the womb and still born may be a more serious concern))
1) Matings of JRD Clear to JRD Clear - will always produce JRD CLEAR offspring. No need to test.
2) Matings of JRD Carrier (single) to JRD Clear - could produce some JRD clear (test & choose from the clear for breeding)
3) Mating of JRD Carrier (single) to JRD Carrier (single) could produce some JRD clear, some JRD carriers and some JRD homozygotes (double) - test &choose from the clear for breeding. If no clear choose from the carriers (single) and follow '2' above process when breeding from the carrier.
4) Mating JRD Homozygote (double) to JRD Clear - will produce ALL JRD carriers (single) - no need to test, select one and follow '2' above process when breeding from the carrier.
5) Mating JRD Homozygote (double) to a JRD Carrier (single) - could produce JRD Carriers (single) and JRD Homozygote (double) - test and choose from the JRD Carriers (single) and then follow '2' above when breeding from it.
6) Mating JRD Homozygote (double) to JRD Homozygote (double) - will always produce JRD Homozygote (double) - such a mating should NOT be done.
You cannot treat Hip Dysplasia and other diseases this way and eradicate them from GSD.
This is the value of DNA Tests, with some diseases, like JRD, it will be possible to control and eradicate some of them by DNA Testing and breeding practices.
Currently with the apparent low level of JRD Testing in our breed, stud dogs that are not JRD tested will be used by kennels that are mating JRD Tested (Clear) females. The approach I will have when I do this, as when I use a German untested stud dog, will be to place a breeding restriction on the whole litter when I register them, which will be removed when they are JRD tested Clear by their owners who wish to breed from them (including those I retain). Or have ALL the puppies JRD Tested myself (a bit expensive). A GSD Breed Council scheme which could BULK buy the JRD tests, and make the results PUBLIC, could make the JRD Tests much cheaper, possibly up to 40% cheaper.
by Trotters123 on 28 October 2009 - 12:10
Videx (Mr Payne) Can I say what a well thought out and informative posting. Thank you very much for that. Frank
by Linern on 28 October 2009 - 12:10
David. Sorry but you misunderstood me. I didn't say you were accusing me of attacking you I was just saying that the attacks you mentioned in your post were nothing to do with what I was trying to say. All that you have written about what to mate to what etc, I do actually know. I think you are misunderstanding my post but never mind I'm not the best at putting what I mean into words.
Your assumption of me being ' pinickity ' , maybe so but I would have used the word ' thorough ' more from my point of view.
The breed council idea is excellent.
Lynn.C.
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