Why OFA and the "A" Stamp Aren't Good Enough - Page 4

Gustav, I'm talking about when hips got so bad that the SV started the zuchtwert number. They wouldn't have done this if there hadn't been a serious problem. It's my opiinion the problem was caused by too much linebreeding/inbreeding in the showline dogs. (Re. Jantie's articles on the showline dogs.)

As for the relationship between working ability and hips, you're obviously not going to get much work out of a dog that his no hip sockets, or extremely bad hips! that's all I meant by that comment. I wasn't saying the working ability of the GSD was any worse or better than 30 or 40 years ago, though, to state the obvious, I know the showlines don't work as well as the working lines [Duh!]

Are the working lines known to have a lower pecentage of dysplasia than the show lines?

Steve, my post was just directed at the thread in general, esp. those who said breeding for good hips might narrow the gene pool even further. I don't think that's going to happen, as breeders tend to focus on things that can be seen, like angulation, nice heads, working drive, etc.  And hopefully there are enough dogs out there with good hips that you shouldn't need to narrow your breeding choices that drastically to find sires and dams with good hips!

JMO, feel free to agree/disagree...

breeding dogs (or any animal for that matter) is not like a painting where you actually reach a point that you can say you are done, hang the thing on the wall and then enjoy it for 20 years.  breeding animals is more like making a braided rug.  maybe you start with what you have on hand, add one color, then another and then you decide you need something totally different.  you can't stop because when you do, its done.  same with the dogs - we just keep braiding in what it needs.  we work with what we have available, bring in what we need, then stand back and evaluate it, figure out what comes next and then go with it.  this is why so many fall along the wayside.  this is not a simple endeavor.  you can't simply breed for hips or coat or color or teeth.  will we have sections of our GSD braided rug that we aren't happy with; that we don't like?  well, sure, but usually we won't realize it until many rounds have been made.  many many breeders don't stick with a plan past one or two breedings/generations.  they must not have the patience for it.  if they don't see immediate results, they abandon their plan and opt for another.  this sort of hodgepodge breeding does nothing good for the breed.  subsequent generations cannot be bred with any kind of predictability.  do we need to braid in good hips?  of course, but we still need to braid in a lot more besides.  i heartily agree with gustav in regards to the loss in working ability which has more to do with what the dog is as a whole.  i am going to stir up a tempest with this, but i am going to say it anyway because i truly believe it:  dog sports have done as much to ruin the breed as dog showing has done; just in a different way.  the vast majority of gsds today are not capable of real work, are not dependable and most do not even have the character to make them trustworthy.  the dogs we had 30 years ago truly were working dogs.  the dogs we have today would all have a bullet in the head if my granddad owned them.  i guess that pretty well sums it up.

pjp

I would agree that PennHip ratings give a pretty accurate representation of an individual dog's hips.  Most of the discussion in this thread seems to deal with these individual ratings.  However, I have yet to see any real proof that this evaluation system is actually improving hips in the breeding of GSD's.  We assume that two dogs with excellent hips (PennHip 0.33) when bred together will give us excellent hips in the puppies.  We also assume that we have isolated the genes for producing good hips through this type of evaluation system.  This is a big assumption.   If this is true, it would be a fairly easy task to then breed excellent hips in generations of puppies, as long as one stuck to the rating system.  Has this been done?  Is anyone getting consistent excellent hips in puppies thoughout their breedings?  I would like to know, and then I would buy into this system more.   I personally don't know of anyone. 
DCW

PJP, I would be glad to take you out to dinner just to talk dogs!!! You definitely understand what is occurring in the breed and why....Bravo!!!

HD is a polygenic trait and will always be a issue. I actually think ED is a worse  affliction than HD and seems to be easier to eliminate .   Breeders must look to breed for the total dog not just hips elbows etc. All things should be considered. I think the SV has good guidelines. Fero had a A2 rating and he is known as a hip improver. Don V Rolandsteich a A3 NZ dog. What a great dog that has produced better hips than his and great working dogs.