The Need For Genetic Diversity. - Page 5

I dont understand why some breeders who you know have the resources couldn't carefully select a few matings just for health and vigor and diverse bloodlines keeping an eye on confirmation and working ability but not using that for the main criteria.  The main goal to produce animals with the least genetic faults and then search out the other qualities they desire.  They would at least have something to breed into other lines to bolster their stock.    Maybe I'm being to nieve but I tend to try to keep things simple.   Its was just a thought.

Speaknow, the stats I was referring to are the ones posted that listed the percentage of diversity in different breeds, I think it was in one of the threads about longcoats. Just wondering where the GSD numbers came from and how they were calculated - Am lines? imports? a combo of both/all? Considering all the GSD's born in today's world and that many of them are combinations of all "lines" and unrelated for many generations, I really have a big problem believing that there is not enough genetic diversity available today without infusing another breed.  The catch 22 is the dogs that offer the diversity will probably not be  Va's from the Sieger or  stud dogs with name recognition that will sell puppies and that will automatically eliminate the majority of candidates from consideration. Some will be sitting in someone's backyard or competing in AKC performance events, etc and will never be discovered without thinking out of that box. The AKC studbook can be a very valuable asset in when searching pedigrees. 

Every time the terms linebreeding or inbreeing are mentioned on a GSD list, most go berserk acting as if such a breeding will always produce 3 legged dogs with hillbilly teeth.  That's what I consider an adversion to close breeding. I probably should have said "currently there is an adversion".  I imagine there are tons of good reasons to not use Am lines, Czech dogs, showlines, workinglines,  whatever, but the fact remains that other lines are available if genetic diversity is the goal. It's a problem in most breeds mainly due to the popular stud dog syndrome. Although there may very well be some, I know of no other breed that has as many opportunities to infuse some "new blood" into the gene pool without bringing in another breed than this one.

Considering  all the GSD's bred in the world today, I really have a big problem believing that there is not more genetic diversity available today than the above mentioned chart indicates.

There is software available to calculate COI's.

Blitzen, those stats were on Hardy-Weinberg Equilbrium, not breed diversity.  Two entirely different principles and only loosely connected.

In that study the GSD came up with high disequilibrum, probably due to the high number of dogs used in comparison with other breeds.  This gives more liklihood of a securing a cross section of types from separate populations that have probably very little gene flow between them.  HW measures the frequencies of particular loci with two alternative alleles(SNPs) and determines equilibrium by their pair type (hetero and homozygous) proportion.  Non random breeding, as in the case of the GSD sample, gives disequilibrium.

There may be wide genetic diversity within the GSD breed as a whole but inbreeding such as that highlighted by Wildmoor's post is likely to have reduced this considerable within certain lines.

Thanks, Pod, I thought the 2 were more closely related.   Do  you know where they got their sample stats?

No sorry I don't.  But interestingly, although the publication is American, the research labs listed are in the UK and Waltham Pet Centre is one.  Waltham were mailing breeders/owners a couple of years ago, asking for DNA samples from many breeds for various research projects.  Our KC was also mentioned in the mailing, I suppose to add credence.

It could be that this study is based on these UK samples.  If the mailing list that generated these has come from KC records it could well include working bloodlines in the GSD but if they're taken from show catalogues, then it's likely just show bloodlines of old UK  'Alsatian' type as well as European.

I need to make something clear here I was not blaming the stud dog, no doubt a certain person emailed the owner I was discussing the inbreeding in my dogs pedigree and that includes the female line as you have Laios van Noort who is the result of Quando progeny mated to Uran progeny. Laios was then mated to Quaxie vom haus Gero who is a Quando son. their progeny was mated to Arko progeny who himself is a son of Quando mated to Uran Progeny. this is the male side of the female line.  The problems have not been caused by either the male or female line seperately but by mating both sire and dam together the doubling up of inbreeding already present in the lines.

I agree with you Blitzen that there are many dogs not linebred/total outcrosses out there. Many BYB or pet people see only 2 dogs of the same breed and throw them together with no regard to pedigree. I have owned quite a few of those myself.

I get a little peeved when people speak as if HD runs rampant in the breed. I have owned 15 GSD and GSDx dogs and not one has had HD or symptoms of HD when not OFA'd. The only problem I can see dog after dog, are allergies. Not life threatening, but a pain in the a$$ regardless. Never a case of bloat, EPI, Mega E, Panis or anything else people scream to high heaven about. Just 3 years ago, is when I started to get serious about lines and worrying about what is behind a dog. I'll see in another 15 years if "the better bred dogs" are any worse than my backyard junkers.

There are so many breeders out there breeding for their own reasons or just throwing 2 dogs together, I'm not worried at all about diversity. Though I am one of those people that would breed a show line to a working dog if they matched up right for me. Shelly and Molly say they breed for health, Marlene doesn't linebreed at all, darylehret has their own beliefs and so does everyone else. We are all over the board here in regards to breeding and how to go about it. It's so nice that this is a free counrty and people can and will do it their way. The SV doesn't like closer than 2-3, yet Koos is doing 2-2's. Kirschental has show dogs that still work adn heard like all the old lines 30 and more years ago. They obvioulsy have their own method to the maddness, and it works.