Questions for the genetics wizards out there - Page 5

Okay, just one more posting about pigeons, then I promise I will stop (unless someone asks for more).  Just remember, I have never complained when football or horses is discussed on here.

Some interesting facts about pigeons, found on another web site.

Are pigeons intelligent?
Pigeons are considered to be one of the most intelligent birds on the planet with pigeons being able to undertake tasks previously thought to be the sole preserve of humans and primates.  The pigeon has also been found to pass the ‘mirror test’ (being able to recognise its reflection in a mirror) and is one of only 6 species, and the only non-mammal, that has this ability.  The pigeon can also recognise all 26 letters of the English language as well as being able to conceptualise. In scientific tests pigeons have been found to be able to differentiate between photographs and even differentiate between two different human beings in a photograph when rewarded with food for doing so.

Famous pigeons
During the First World War a pigeon named Cher Ami (Dear friend) saved the lives of many French soldiers by carrying a message across enemy lines in the heat of battle.  Cher Ami was shot in the chest and the leg, loosing most of the leg to which the message was attached, but continued the 25 minute flight avoiding shrapnel and poison gas to get the message home.  Cher Ami was awarded the French ‘Croix de Guerre’ for heroic service.  Another heroic pigeon named G.I. Joe saved the lives of a thousand soldiers in World War 2 after British troops had established a position within an Italian town that was due to be bombed by allied planes. Communication equipment was down and the only means of stopping the raid was to attach a hastily written message to G.I. Joe and send him to the HQ.  G.I. Joe flew 20 miles in 20 minutes arriving at the air base whilst the planes were taxiing on the runway.  Disaster was averted with 5 minutes to spare.  G.I. Joe received the ‘Dickin’ medal for his bravery.

Famous people and pigeons
The humble pigeon has attracted some very famous fans over the last few thousand years ranging from Royalty to rock and roll singers and actors through to fashion designers.  One of the most famous royals is Queen Elizabeth of England who has lofts and pigeon keepers at her estate in Sandringham, Norfolk.  Elvis Presley had a soft spot for pigeons and Mike Tyson is also an enthusiastic pigeon keeper.  Even Maurizzo Gucci the internationally renowned fashion designer is a keen pigeon fancier spending a reputed $10,000 on one American pigeon.  'One famous couple, Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward, are keen pigeon fanciers but after being swamped by autograph hunters at a pigeon show they are apparently less comfortable to show their affection for the birds publicly.'  Last but not least, and probably the most famous of all... Noah!

Good post Blitzen.  You know your stuff. I think your view of Ulk is correct.  At the time there was nothing like him. I don't like all the concentration of bad recessives in W. Germany in showlines or working lines.  I also understand that complete outgcrosses that succeedin producing excetional progeny are very rare, but when this happens they are worth their weight in Gold many times. 

I know one thing for sure.  The knowledge and skill in breeding to obtain progeny of the type and quality desired is held by very few and are really trade secrets.  Most of the German SV breed wardens and the very top German and European kennels have this knowledge and keep producing top GSDs.  A few American and Canadian breeders have these secreets and inside knowledge on which lines carry what and should be crossed.  I would like to see them use more lab screening tests and xrays (hip & elbow xrays at two years old, TLI, free-bleding, thyroid, mega-esophagus xrays on all stud dogs and dams good records kept and shared).  This would make the offspring more expensive and of somewhat less confirmation quality for a while as the problems are eliminated.  But overall, I think this would be better in the long term.  Too many bad recessives have been allowed to slip through in my opinion in order to breed those superstars who then dispense them to their progeny, keeping the breed with too many bad recessives.

I knew Ulk Wikingerblut and his owners. I had an Ulk grandson (a Ch. UDT--lived until 12.5 years) and granddaughter (a Ch. UD--lived until past 15). 

Ulk was imported quite reasonably as a very young dog. While he was not a truly "great" dog (or utilized properly by breeders), he made up for this with his showmanship, ring presence, and outstanding character.

He naturally carried the longcoat factor and also the blue recessive--big deal! I never had any problems with blues, no unusual prevalence of of cryptorchids, and a normal percentage of coats.

"Are pigeons intelligent?

Pigeons are considered to be one of the most intelligent birds on the planet with pigeons being able to undertake tasks previously thought to be the sole preserve of humans and primates.  The pigeon has also been found to pass the ‘mirror test’ (being able to recognise its reflection in a mirror) and is one of only 6 species, and the only non-mammal, that has this ability.  The pigeon can also recognise all 26 letters of the English language as well as being able to conceptualise. In scientific tests pigeons have been found to be able to differentiate between photographs and even differentiate between two different human beings in a photograph when rewarded with food for doing so."

I have no problem believing pigeons to be very intelligent - but the most intelligent bird?  What about crows, and especially parrots?  Surely they are considered more intelligent than pigeons. 

This is all very interesting including the pigeon facts.

molly

My " America Singer" canaries are dumb. The male will attack the female if she comes near the food while he is eating. So she hops right back up to her perch and chirps which makes the male go up and regurgitate all the food he ate into her mouth.

Do Right,

On Bettas, you really need to feed frozen bloodworms for two weeks to the pair, while they are seperated ( Conditioning pereiod ) and place them in 80degree Fereinheit water in a spawning tank) to get a spawn.

I traced the Sire line on one of my dogs to SZ1 ( Horand) born 1998 I got 26 generations with an average 3.9561 (years), generation age. I chose the sire line as it is easiet to follow, and because the Dam line does not get to 20 generations yet.

In General when people really like a species or breed they will say everything to highlight the smarts or that species. I can recall Horse People saying that horses where so special that a Roman Emperor named his Horse " Inkitartus" (sp?) a Roman Senator. But really, I thgink the Emperor was just trying to make the Senate Furious with him.

Ferrum:  you are right about the Emperor naming his horse a Roman Senator, at least if the movie was correct.  He did it just to infuriate and belittle the actual Senators.

Molly:  I believe the key to the pigeon intelligence statement are the words "one of the most", which leaves it open to a vast number of birds that could be placed in front of it, considering how many fowl species there are in the world.  This kind of goes along with the other thread now going about "pet peeves" referring to spelling of words, etc.  Words do mean something and the devil is in the details, as they say.  I raise African Grey Timneh Parrots and they are a lot smarter than pigeons.  I know, I have both.  I would be hard pressed to say which is smarter, my GSD's or my parrots, but if I had to choose, I would say my dogs, although it didn't take the parrtos long to figure out how to open their cage locks, more than once, and I have one mean male that wants to hurt me very much (for whatever reason) and when he figured out that if he constantly came at me immediately, I was ready, so he figured out to turn his back on me, as if ignoring me when I opened his cage door, and he would even bite his toenails to "convince" me he could care less about me sticking my hand into his cage.  But as soon as I got my hand in there, he would spin around and go for it, sort of like "setting me up".  But being higher up on the food chain, I figured him out, and he is still playing that little game.  He is a wild caught bird, never having been a tame pet.  But not by much.  We have a miniature horse which we just recently obtained, and neither of us has much experience with horses, but thus far, he seems rather intelligent, although more aloof than the other animals (except for the pigeons :).

While I am at it, talking about my parrots.  As I said, I am changing as I get older, and I have been sad recently about my parrots living in cages for most, if not all of their lives.  They can live for 70 years or so and I won't be around that long, so they will go through several owners probably, after I am gone.  I have looked into finding some kind of rehabilitation program to get them trained and released back into the wild and there are none.  I have contacted several organizations through the internet and have been informed that there are programs like that for many species of animal, but none for Timnehs.  I have also contemplated releasing them in Florida, as when I was there for a couple of weeks several years ago, I observed some living in the wild there, along with other parrot species, notably the Quaker parrot.  But, they would most likely die or be eaten by predators.  It also may be against the law to do it intentionally, although no one would or could ever know.  I am still considering it as something to do before I die.  If anyone out there knows of a way to have my caged Timnehs re-introduced to the wild in Africa, I would go for it.  Even if they only lived in the wild for a year or two before they fell victim to some type of disease or predator, I believe it would still be worth it to them.  But......., they probably don't think about such things.  But they might.

Waltimina-A person that you consider a friend sent me this fascinating link:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?s=f52c857ce45fcdb40cd2cae823b999ea&t=24614
 

I sure did find it interesting and just thought I'd share it.

"I also breed world class German Shepherd Dogs," (doright)  AHAHAHAHAHHAA!!!!!  Thanks for the link, very funny reading.