THE POLITICS AT THE 2011 NASS - Page 11

OK Randy,

I hadn't considered that angle.  Thanks for the insight.  That was an AAAHHHH moment!

Randy,

Is there a place that describes some of the different factors that judges consider as they are placing dogs in the ring?

AAAHHHH moment  -  for many......

If not, can you (ot others) list some of the factors for us newbe's.

VA dogs in the US generally follow a pattern. An outstanding prospect and I'll stress prospect would be a dog that placed first ring in Germany and has consistent placings from other judges, 'a' normal hips and elbows, low ZW, from a producing mother, representative of what the ancestors produce. You can always apply this to the VA dogs and see how they stack up. 

They should all follow the pattern. Those that do not stick out and you have to look close to see what's there. Those that do follow the pattern that do not go VA need to be looked at closely to what happened.

To VA at NASS ....
Placed first ring in Germany
Consistent placings from other judges,
'a' normal hips and elbows,
Low ZW,
From a producing mother,
Representative of what the ancestors produce
  Then exceptions  - 
Too many from the same bloodline...
Exceptionally poor performance day of the show...
  What else comes to mind....?

how much bearing do these have?
shown several times during the year vs shown only once?
progeny groups?
best in protection?
dog that's VA's in another country, but not placed in the first ring in Germany?
"kennel teams" do these have any influence?

   

SitasMom,
good summary!

I was curious about the kennel groups also.   Not just about their influence but also how do kennel groups work? 

Say you have "Team XYZ".  Who are the members?  Is it a club?   Do they hold a share somehow, Like financially or by buying a puppy?

sorry if this seems dumb and thanks for any insight

Sieger show is a breed show. The dog itself and what it has and can produce gets you in the running for consideration. The dog is what it is and that's where it begins. The judge forms an opinion watching the bitework, it's factored into the placing to some degree. From there the stand for exam where the judge observes it's construction. Titles, breed survey, pedigree, hip and elbow status are all factored in at this time considering what the current trend is for the direction of the breed. Is the dog from a family that is currently in demand and demonstrates the characteristics the direction the breed is going in Germany? Is it from a family that has fallen out of favor and on its way out? Finally the fast lap creates the last of the analysis.

From that point on; contributing factors begin to come into play.

• What is the coat condition, physical condition of dog on the day it's shown? Out of coat, coat coming in, coat shedding. Dog too fat, dog too thin. Dog loose and not condition?
• How skillfully was it prepared and handled? Handling is a skill with a touch, those that are skilled and can stack a dog correctly, get a dog going at it's correct speed, make sure the dog looks it's looking it's best when the judge looks at it in the ring, etc. These all contribute tremendously to the final position.
• How effective is the double handling? Is the double handler able to motivate the dog? Are they able to be in position to call the dog at the right moment? Do they have the physical capability to run the ring and call the dog? Does the dog respond to them?
• Who owns the dog? Do they have more than 2 for consideration in the VA group? Normally no more than one owner gets a VA, sometimes two. Never seen 3. Look at this years BSZS. Second dog from the same owner V1. VA stops there.

I'm sure I'm leaving a few out. The VA is a complicated group.

To respond to Kim's questions; how much bearing do these have?

• Shown several times during the year vs shown only once?

Big bearing in Germany. The results from other judges and the placing of offspring are considered in the final placing. In the US? We are unfortunately not as sophisticated, neither club gathers the information and has it available to the judges. Showing prior to the sieger show in the US? Doesn't hurt. Judge gets to see the dog. You get to learn what the judge thinks of it and what you can improve between then and the sieger show.

• Progeny groups?

Big bearing in Germany and big bearing in the US. Progeny group is a double edged sword. Present a good group and your dog moves up. Present a not so good group and it goes the other way.

• Best in protection?

Or even really pronounced. Don't think the judges don't know what they are looking at. They do. They really do know the difference between pronounced and sufficient. Some good dogs don't pass some that shouldn't do. Get used to it, judge doesn't see everything and some dogs have a bad day. Where do you draw the line? How do you judge performance? This always intrigues me. It's a question I usually ask the judges at the sieger show. The responses have been somewhat consistent. I'll take the liberty to convey what my interpretation is of the situation. Typically 20% failure rate. The performance level is set by the judge to target this percentage.
 
Why? Complicated answer. If it's too soft the good dogs may not even bite, all the dogs pass and there's no level of performance. Too hard and not enough dogs pass, there are very few dogs left in the already shrinking classes and the VA group which is a percentage of the dogs in the ring is small. Some deserving dogs that are properly prepared and have a lot to offer the breed go without because of the numbers of dogs left in the ring excludes them. This balance is tough for some to understand or even accept. It's a part of the show, a reality of the show and show world. It is changing and will change as breeders become aware that their dogs have to be bred and trained better to ensure their success.

Holy crap Dog1 how does that work? Not sure I can answer that. Here goes. The system is what it is. We can see the path it's taking as we watch the path paved ahead of us in Germany. There are breeders that take the work ethic of the dog into consideration and take the time to train and prepare it correctly. The product of their work is on display at the sieger show. You can view all the males protection work right on youtube. That's your dog out there. How does it look? Are you proud of what it did on the field that day? Did you sleep comfortably the night before knowing what was coming the following day? Is that a dog you really want to breed to? I guess there two aspects to performance. That what the owner exhibits, that what those who care will breed to. It's a pride thing I guess. Your dog marginally passes and got a VA rating, super, congratulations, see who breeds to it. It's a pass/fail system but for most there's more to it than just that.

• Dog that's VA's in another country, but not placed in the first ring in Germany?

Prior VA helps. Not first ring in Germany? Take a look at all the dogs that are VA in other countries. Simple enough to do, search BSZS results on this website. See all the VA males from other countries. V80 is about the cutoff. Outside the first ring in Germany and you're probably out of the running considering the competition. There are enough that were first ring quality to fill the group.

• "Kennel teams" do these have any influence?

Absolutely! German Shepherds are a team sport. Breeding, training, conditioning, showing, handling, access to good genetics, support and knowledge of the breed. All essential elements of success. The better your team, the better your opportunity for success. No different than any other sport.

Dog1 said  "The system is what it is."

 
I do think that this says everything one can say about showing dogs. Anyone with any long term success knows this. Crying politics, corruption, weak dogs and the 100 other things that those who do not do well (or do nothing) moan about changes nothing.


Honestly, how long does it take one to see that things are not as they should be as far as what the GSD was intended. But how does any of this prevent the individual from having or breeding what they consider a "real" GSD. Too many folks want to point fingers at what others do, rather than taking the initiative  to put the "real" GSD out there.

jmo,

Rik   

Someone gave me very good advice recently.

I have printed it and keep it on my desk.

"Anyway, if you stay the course in this crazy game, you will learn how to deal with politics, how to choose and breed the dogs that you believe in and to believe in them no matter where they place."

good enough for me.

While I can't comment with veracity on anything posted here, I can share one observation. Yasso vom Mittelwest is the strongest show line I have yet experienced to include my own current Universal Sieger and all of the show lines and most of the working lines we competed against at the WUSV World Universal Sieger in Linz, Austria. For him not to receive a performance award can not be classified as an "oversight" because other than perhaps Griff he is on an entirely different planet from the others presented. Something was amiss. Kevin Nance

"....there is NO show line in the U.S. or Germany who could accurately be evaluated as "prepotent" for protection for all of the aforementioned reasons. The best we have is some anecdotal conjecture and "hope" from any given breeding lending itself toward the occasional "accident" where the stars line up and a given show line can perform at the National level. Kevin Nance

Kevin,

Could Yasso be one of the "accidents" you were referring to on your previous post?