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by charity on 18 November 2011 - 16:11
Rik,
I think I understand what you are saying and I agree the German opinion is important. I was unaware of N.A. judges appointing themselves directors of the breed. How did that slip by me??!!
My question is: Are we getting an honest opinion"?
The thread was about politics and (my phrasing here) judges taking care of their own.
Nothing brings tears to my eyes like watching a handler and dog team who are in total synchronization and the unfettered freedom of the dog flying down the field for the long bite.
People work long and hard for this and for the opportunity to bring their dogs to the show. They deserve a fair shake.
To see them placed behind a lesser performing dog because it is owned/bred/trained/sold by a high falutin' judge or his friend just really gives me a rash! I don't care if the judge is German or not.
I am happy for the American exhibitors at the NASS who feel they got a fair shake. Awesome! Great job!
I would like to take steps to insure fairness in the future and perhaps rotating judges or putting the names up for a membership vote is a way to do that.
Looking for solutuions here.....I know we can't make everyone happy.....but I can try darn it!
Best,
Mary
I think I understand what you are saying and I agree the German opinion is important. I was unaware of N.A. judges appointing themselves directors of the breed. How did that slip by me??!!
My question is: Are we getting an honest opinion"?
The thread was about politics and (my phrasing here) judges taking care of their own.
Nothing brings tears to my eyes like watching a handler and dog team who are in total synchronization and the unfettered freedom of the dog flying down the field for the long bite.
People work long and hard for this and for the opportunity to bring their dogs to the show. They deserve a fair shake.
To see them placed behind a lesser performing dog because it is owned/bred/trained/sold by a high falutin' judge or his friend just really gives me a rash! I don't care if the judge is German or not.
I am happy for the American exhibitors at the NASS who feel they got a fair shake. Awesome! Great job!
I would like to take steps to insure fairness in the future and perhaps rotating judges or putting the names up for a membership vote is a way to do that.
Looking for solutuions here.....I know we can't make everyone happy.....but I can try darn it!
Best,
Mary
by Rik on 18 November 2011 - 16:11
My question is: Are we getting an honest opinion"?
The thread was about politics and (my phrasing here) judges taking care of their own.
mary, I entered my first show ring 30 years ago this year. In the time since, I have exhibited/bred or shown dogs to championship in several different breeds and countries. I have also founded and/or directed GSD clubs, sponsored GSD shows in the U.S. and dealt with politics on every level. I do not have have any learning disability that limits my understanding of what the original thread was intended.
here is what I have learned, the further back one places, the louder the politics is screamed.
Rik
The thread was about politics and (my phrasing here) judges taking care of their own.
mary, I entered my first show ring 30 years ago this year. In the time since, I have exhibited/bred or shown dogs to championship in several different breeds and countries. I have also founded and/or directed GSD clubs, sponsored GSD shows in the U.S. and dealt with politics on every level. I do not have have any learning disability that limits my understanding of what the original thread was intended.
here is what I have learned, the further back one places, the louder the politics is screamed.
Rik
by charity on 18 November 2011 - 16:11
I suppose that's true.
I was not implying that you had a learning disability and am sorry if you got that impression.
I thought the original poster did not have a dog entered.
I never felt politics was at play in any of my past placings. Always felt I got what I deserved.
It is sad that people would expect to get something for nothing.
i'm still looking for solutions that will maybe lessen the furor in the future.
Or at least make it more difficult to sound the battle cry.
I was not implying that you had a learning disability and am sorry if you got that impression.
I thought the original poster did not have a dog entered.
I never felt politics was at play in any of my past placings. Always felt I got what I deserved.
It is sad that people would expect to get something for nothing.
i'm still looking for solutions that will maybe lessen the furor in the future.
Or at least make it more difficult to sound the battle cry.
by Rik on 20 November 2011 - 02:11
charity, politics have always been and I do not see a future where they are not a part of the show ring. And I have not found this to be different in the SV, or NASS or UScA, than the Am. ring that I have been involved in. It's not going to change.
As a breeder/exhibitor (if you stick) you will learn how to deal with it.
The issue I have with the direction this thread has taken is that anonymous posters have called out dogs/breeders as unworthy of their placings. Apparently they want SV dogs, SV type shows, SV judges and SV patterned awards but not SV results.
go figure.
Rick Atchley
As a breeder/exhibitor (if you stick) you will learn how to deal with it.
The issue I have with the direction this thread has taken is that anonymous posters have called out dogs/breeders as unworthy of their placings. Apparently they want SV dogs, SV type shows, SV judges and SV patterned awards but not SV results.
go figure.
Rick Atchley
by Dog1 on 20 November 2011 - 14:11
Rik,
You asked what my criteria was for VA. My criteria is formed from an observation of what dogs that have earned VA typically have. I have studied the group over the years both in Germany and in the US and I've paid particular attention to the critiques of the VA dogs in Germany to learn what the criteria is in Germany.
Over the years it has been very easy to determine who would be sieger in Germany. I simply went to the Koblinguss website where Christian had posted the results of the offspring from the different males throughout the show season. The male with the most top placing offspring in the results under multiple judges was always the sieger. No magic here. When people were knowing in advance who the sieger was going to be it wasn't necessarily from people that heard rumors of politics, it could have been from people that understood the system and the progression through the VA group. Typically you will see a reasonably good placing in the youth class top 25 or so followed by an interest in breeders to breed to the dog, followed by a reputation of what the dog is producing, followed by a decent place high V or low VA where the dog is in a position to attract more females and the dog is set to move up.
Moving up is largely dependent upon who is behind the dog. What females can they attract, what females do they have, how successful will they be in getting the best offspring trained and entered in the show. The manager has to take it all into consideration. The cross section of quality, the ability to get the offspring to show homes, now that all dogs must be HD/ED certified to show, the dogs hip and elbow production is a part of the factoring. The manager has to select which females are suitable and which ones are not. Breeding a marginal female to an up and coming male who's owner is just going to sell the puppies from the male is a questionable practice for the male. He uses one of the few breedings he has, he produces a litter where the offspring may wind up in the ring to support him or haunt him. There's more than one female that's been turned down a breeding to a top male because the owner didn't feel the female was a good choice for his male and worth chancing one of the few breedings on her. I know, one of them was mine.
Once you have a contender, bloodlines come into play. Typically the VA group contains no more than 2 dogs from the same bloodlines. This to assure diversity within the breed. Sometimes you can have two dogs just about equal that place apart because of their heritage. There are exceptions, but it's safe to say it's a major consideration. Do the places seem out of order or out of the area in the class where they belong? Politics or an understanding of the system? If you look at the pattern you'll see it all fits. If it doesn't fit it stands out. The system has a set of checks and balances.
You asked what my criteria was for VA. My criteria is formed from an observation of what dogs that have earned VA typically have. I have studied the group over the years both in Germany and in the US and I've paid particular attention to the critiques of the VA dogs in Germany to learn what the criteria is in Germany.
Over the years it has been very easy to determine who would be sieger in Germany. I simply went to the Koblinguss website where Christian had posted the results of the offspring from the different males throughout the show season. The male with the most top placing offspring in the results under multiple judges was always the sieger. No magic here. When people were knowing in advance who the sieger was going to be it wasn't necessarily from people that heard rumors of politics, it could have been from people that understood the system and the progression through the VA group. Typically you will see a reasonably good placing in the youth class top 25 or so followed by an interest in breeders to breed to the dog, followed by a reputation of what the dog is producing, followed by a decent place high V or low VA where the dog is in a position to attract more females and the dog is set to move up.
Moving up is largely dependent upon who is behind the dog. What females can they attract, what females do they have, how successful will they be in getting the best offspring trained and entered in the show. The manager has to take it all into consideration. The cross section of quality, the ability to get the offspring to show homes, now that all dogs must be HD/ED certified to show, the dogs hip and elbow production is a part of the factoring. The manager has to select which females are suitable and which ones are not. Breeding a marginal female to an up and coming male who's owner is just going to sell the puppies from the male is a questionable practice for the male. He uses one of the few breedings he has, he produces a litter where the offspring may wind up in the ring to support him or haunt him. There's more than one female that's been turned down a breeding to a top male because the owner didn't feel the female was a good choice for his male and worth chancing one of the few breedings on her. I know, one of them was mine.
Once you have a contender, bloodlines come into play. Typically the VA group contains no more than 2 dogs from the same bloodlines. This to assure diversity within the breed. Sometimes you can have two dogs just about equal that place apart because of their heritage. There are exceptions, but it's safe to say it's a major consideration. Do the places seem out of order or out of the area in the class where they belong? Politics or an understanding of the system? If you look at the pattern you'll see it all fits. If it doesn't fit it stands out. The system has a set of checks and balances.
by Gustav on 20 November 2011 - 14:11
Diversity with the breed?????????? I have studied GS pedigrees for over 40 years, and think I know them fairly wel.....diversity within the breed??????OK...I'll leave it alone!!!haha
by charity on 20 November 2011 - 17:11
Randy,
Could you explain a little more your statement
Typically the VA group contains no more than 2 dogs from the same bloodlines. This to assure diversity within the breed. Sometimes you can have two dogs just about equal that place apart because of their heritage. There are exceptions, but it's safe to say it's a major consideration.
I noticed that many pedigrees from the VA group in 2010 Sieger Show seemed similar.
Alot of the Nero Nobachtal/Scott Deodatus combo.
It is apparent in the Wilhendorf dogs also.
What is the benefit of that combo?
Thanks for any insight you can provide.
Mary
Could you explain a little more your statement
Typically the VA group contains no more than 2 dogs from the same bloodlines. This to assure diversity within the breed. Sometimes you can have two dogs just about equal that place apart because of their heritage. There are exceptions, but it's safe to say it's a major consideration.
I noticed that many pedigrees from the VA group in 2010 Sieger Show seemed similar.
Alot of the Nero Nobachtal/Scott Deodatus combo.
It is apparent in the Wilhendorf dogs also.
What is the benefit of that combo?
Thanks for any insight you can provide.
Mary
by Dog1 on 20 November 2011 - 22:11
Mary,
I'm addressing the sieger show in Germany with my assessment. We can move on to the NASS if anyone cares. I was getting long winded and PDB cuts me off if I get on a roll. Those that know me,,,, know this about me. Thanks for all their patience.
Take a look at the VA groups from year to year. You should see the pattern, like I said with some exceptions. 2010 sieger show in Germany. Let's look at the VA group and see if there are more than 2 dogs from one father. We have Guccy and Ballack from Odin, Figo from Furbo, Lennox from Tyson, PieK from Ilbo, Mentos from Nando, Paer from Quenn, Nino from Irok, Sultan from Vegas, Ustinov from Quantum, Quattro from Zamp, and Remo is open. There are no more than 2 from any one male, the class is spread over the top producing males without any one male dominating.
I'm addressing the sieger show in Germany with my assessment. We can move on to the NASS if anyone cares. I was getting long winded and PDB cuts me off if I get on a roll. Those that know me,,,, know this about me. Thanks for all their patience.
Take a look at the VA groups from year to year. You should see the pattern, like I said with some exceptions. 2010 sieger show in Germany. Let's look at the VA group and see if there are more than 2 dogs from one father. We have Guccy and Ballack from Odin, Figo from Furbo, Lennox from Tyson, PieK from Ilbo, Mentos from Nando, Paer from Quenn, Nino from Irok, Sultan from Vegas, Ustinov from Quantum, Quattro from Zamp, and Remo is open. There are no more than 2 from any one male, the class is spread over the top producing males without any one male dominating.
by charity on 21 November 2011 - 01:11
Randy,
Sorry for the misunderstanding...I was talking abut the German show also.....but then I went back and looked again at 2010, it's been awhile, and the combo was not as evident as I remembered.
When I realized you were talking about the sires of the winners 2010 WAS pretty diverse. I think Vegas was the only dog who had more than 1 son (2) go VA.
Three had Scott Deodatus in the background and 2 went back to Nero Nobachtal.
I know what you mean about patient friends....I tend to be long winded also when talking dogs, pedigrees and training.
We should start a new thread...I don't think this has much to do with politics!
Thanks for your patience as well!
by Dog1 on 21 November 2011 - 13:11
Mary,
It actually has a lot to do about politics. A very large percentage of what's described as politics is a misunderstanding of the system. It's great when you don't know the answer to shrug it off on politics. Why did this great dog from dog X not place in front of that other dog from dog Y, he's clearly a better dog? Politics or is the answer as simple as the VA group was already full from that father? One of many possible examples.
It actually has a lot to do about politics. A very large percentage of what's described as politics is a misunderstanding of the system. It's great when you don't know the answer to shrug it off on politics. Why did this great dog from dog X not place in front of that other dog from dog Y, he's clearly a better dog? Politics or is the answer as simple as the VA group was already full from that father? One of many possible examples.
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