VA 1 Pakros d'Ulmental--ED: noch zugelassen - Page 5

Just a comment on the requirement for stud dogs to be re-xrayed after nn number of breedings:  From what I understand the purpose of the re-xray is for entirely for verification that the same dog has been x-rayed.   If the SV also happens to make notes on whether or not the hips still have the same hip status, who knows.  But that is not the purpose of the re-xray program.

ED is a HUGE problem.. Not just in one country, but all... Why in the world would Germany start to insist on xrays if not for a real concern about the effect on the breed.  ED required on dogs born after 2004?  Required for What? The breed survey?  This must be new because I asked a Kormeister friend of mine not long ago and he said that as of yet, Elbow certification was not being required for breed survey. Maybe it is just required for a Sieger Show?  or to go VA?  Hopefully one of you Germans who knows this for sure can enlighten us..

The system has been established.. Hopefully there is enough integrity in the German system to show that all dogs are judged the same when it comes to these xrays.  To make 'excuses' for elbows on a dog that is Sieger because he is beautiful is nonsense.  Do we allow other traits to just be 'acceptable.?'  Do we allow a dog with 'sufficient' bitework to become Sieger even though we know he may produce quite well in the temperament and workability area?  or that he has parents that have good bitework?  We don't really know about the production of a dog with NZ elbows, because so many elbow issues do show physical signs before one year.  More than likely those dogs were never taken in for an xray.  Saying that Pakros has so many progeny that are xrayed good is not useful info unless you really know how many were not.  I am a huge fan of Bax and his type.  Pakros is a beautiful dog.. and there are some things that are just a shame.. but to be Sieger is to be superiour in all areas, health included.  Well, but I guess it's not.. it just should be.. IMO!

Yes, there are other choices for breeding, and those that have experience as breeders of many litters will likely steer clear of this dog and Nero progeny, unless they are like the greedy Americans who could not get enough of a good thing and took the GSD almost to the point of destruction by selectively ignoring flaws.  The gene pool in Germany is not so limited that  a person limits themselves/kennel, by not using Pakros.  And sure Jeck and even Nero Nobachtal produced some good dogs free of problems, but why introduce a weakness like this to your breeding program?  There is just a higher 'potential' for a problem.  I don't like using a stud (or bitch for that matter) with nz in the first 2-3 generations.. And I have the same criteria for elbows.. If you don't know a rating, you can't make a decision, but once you do know that elbows are bad or nz, it seems foolish to not consider that pretty strongly.

Also, of the 3 elbow problems..(UAP, OCD, &  FCP) the latter does not show up physically until much down the road if at all.. An incredible working dog in our club was just x-rayed at 4.5.. Shows no signs of a problem, but was diagnosed with FCP and did not pass OFA.  We were all stunned... certainly, a dog can be re-xrayed and re-submitted here in the US if they want to contest the rating, but you can see arthritis in an xray long before a dog shows physical signs.

The good thing, for you breeders that will use Pakros, or Nero offspring, or the like, is that most puppy buyers are not so savvy and will want a dog from the Sieger regardless.. My many years involved in this sport, breeding, tell me that if the 1st gen. progeny are OK, you are still not out of the woods..

Thanks to all of those who have contributed.. as this is worthy of much discussion.. It's a very good thread.

From what I understand the purpose of the re-xray is for entirely for verification that the same dog has been x-rayed.   If the SV also happens to make notes on whether or not the hips still have the same hip status, who knows.  But that is not the purpose of the re-xray program.

Maybe that is where we need microchips. Otherwise, why expose a dog to needless radiation?

Of the many xrays I've had taken (including those submitted to the SV), I can't recall the vets'  having actually verified tattoo numbers. But, then, they know me and my background as a tech, etc. I have had them check for chips--they may verify that  the dog is chipped--but their scanner may not be able to read the number.

Watcher, that link does not work. Nowhere on the GSD Breed Council site does it mention Classes of hips, just scores.  Hip scores are hip scores whatever the breed.........

Yes hip scores are hip score but if you think there is no class system in the UK then i'd like to see you get a breed survey done with no hip score or one that is over class 2.

Fortunately my dog has been graded Class 1 in a breed survey.  The class system you refer is relevant to breed surveys, not hip scores.

A dog is graded Class 1 or Class 2 or not..........

For example it is impossible to get a Class 1 if the dog does not have complete dentition.

And you won't get a class 1 if the hips are over 20. I know the Breed council were proposing to lowering the limit which was or is 20 or below = Class1 and there is no class 2 now, i guess you just want to argue for the sake of arguing?

There used to be 2 classes for hips:

Males: 1-20  = Class 1

Males: 21-25 = Class 2

Females: 1-25 = Class 1

Females: 26-35 = Class 2

I'm sure many of the other british breeders that read this could tell you there IS a class system for hips.

Do all the people who have  a stud thats a son of Ursus    know how the elbows were from Ursus , ?  I don,t say that his elbow were not good but do you know???

Do all the people who have  a stud that's a son of Ursus know how the elbows were from Ursus ?

My male is an Ursus son and has OFA certified elbows. Thus far, all of his progeny have been radiographed with good elbows.

The important thing to remember is that, unless the sire himself has bad elbows (according to the OFA, an NZ rating is equivalent to mild elbow dysplasia), it takes two to produce bad elbows--meaning that the dam would have to carry a recessive genes for ED.

Just goes to show that the GSD Breed Council recommendations are lower than those of the KC!