WL + SL = BL??? - Page 9

If I was so narrow minded, would I have ever participated in a show/working cross?

Yes, Ibrahim, I read Dee's post, and I am happy to see that she has done what she's done for herself, and not because of what sells or pleases the crowd.  Beautiful dog in the avatar, by the way.  Dee's also very correct about the amount of research involved with her intent.  I have no time or inclination to study the showlines, and it would be necessary to know twice as much and have more experience to make sound breeding decisions in that regard.

Sorry, not for me, I've found what I like and am sticking with it, and keeping up with the WL genepool is quite enough to do.  Of course, there will be exceptions to every generalization, but based on the "general rule", showlines are not worth the effort to me.  Besides, the character of their enthusiasts would be more difficult for me to tolerate., and I fit right in with the jerks on the workingline side.

Daryl....I think the common denominator amongst us jerks on both sides is that we like our dogs more than most people!!!  What you said about being too busy studying the working lines is an important point....If someone so busy studying Wl and someone so busy studying SL got together and tried some outcrosses I would guess the outcomes would be very promising.  Another point to consider is really where do most puppies go?  Do they go to the SCH field, the show ring, or to homes as pets?  Obviously the majority of people using this site are hardcore on one side or the other...it is important however not to forget where most puppies end up.  I mention this only because even if a carefully researched outcross were done and EVERY puppy was pet quality....it still seems like a win win.  If however, these outcrosses produced horrendous puppies (either in temperment or looks) then it would be a lose situation.  Throughout all the discussion on here and in PMs,  I have yet to hear of a serious "failure" in conducting these outcrosses (dogs not usuable on field, potential to achieve kkl, or placeable in good homes).  Just not sure if any would be show champions....which isn't that important to me (oh the blasphemey) but I still like the SL saddleback "look"  (again...MY taste)!

It is great that DEE did it for herself....but DEE also has the knowledge and contacts to RESPONSIBLY try such a breeding.  I at this point, do not, and rely on "experts" from both sides for their opinions, knowledge and suggestions so I may one day RESPONSIBLY try it myself or at the very least find someone with a top notch breeding program involved it the same.  I am also at least 5 years away from even considering another dog as I have the perfect GSD right now!  I am just worried about the GSD dog (yes the SL side) becoming a goofy house dog like a lab (here come the lab lover attacks)! 

The failure is difficult to see immediately.  The puppies of a cross would most likely be healthy themselves, and if from the cross of two linebred parents, possibly even the product of "hybrid vigor", where the immediate results show a boost in health, while detrimental recessive genes lie dormant, hidden from the phenotype, to rear their ugly heads in the generations that follow.

Where it becomes a "Lose" situation, is where such offspring are not EVEN MORE stringently selected than usual for the breeding of future generations.  Like I said, "cull harder", and that simply means that a "cull" is not used for further breeding.  If not, then what is suffered is "outbreeding depression", and the entire breed is affected with abeit a more shallow, but much wider spread and unavoidable layer of uncertainty for ALL breeders that make their use.

Daryl, I like your frankness and your dedication to the wl dog and think you'd be a good addition to the sl world if you change your mind and become "liberal", I only do not share with you your hard stand against sl dogs and sl breeder's choice. You are very good at genetics and you can join forces with show breeders, GSD shouldn't be a one-breeder-show. I know you won't and I respect your choices. The sl, I assume, is the bigger population, improving it means improving the GSD as a whole.

Ibrahim

I know what I'm going to say might not make sense to many of you but I will say it anyway, I am not as good a composer as Gustav and I know my word is very light with experience weight compared to his and I know I'm not a genetics genius like Daryl, but listen to me and take this comment from an average GSD owner.
I read the standard so many times and I have a habit of digging into each word and each phrase, I even translated the standard to my own language for other people to make it easier for them to have a better idea of the GSD.
The standard of the GSD in few words: A work dog, nice looking, beautifully structured, beautiful efficient trot, noble and friendly, not fearful, family dog, will protect its owners.

If sl breeders harmed the breed with the soft temperament, wl breeders harmed the breed by extreme drives (not mentioned in the standard) and made it not useful for the average owner because it needs extra training. I can't remember in which thread Gustav said something like this:
A good breeding is a litter you find in it one or two pets, one or two show dogs, one or two for sport and one or two for police work.
The wl breeders are breeding for sports extreme as sl breeders are breeding for color, so no one is better than the other.

Ibrahim

Maybe what is wrong is in us, breeders and owners  not our show and work GSDs, maybe no one is willing to do the right research Dee did, maybe most want it the easy way !!!!!!!!!

Ibrahim

 The sad part about this is you seem to think by adding character and drive that SL's can some how be resurrected. You are an intelligent person, so it baffles me that you think continuing on the same path will lead to different results. 

 What shape would the breed been in if 40 years ago every GSD breeder adopted the SV's vision for the breed and you didn't have the WL gene pool to fall back on? The answer to this doesn't make Daryl's comment about no more show breeding narrow minded at all, because todays GSD would be fine without SL's.

fellofher,

I believe the wl dog is the way out for the general decrease in sl temperament and there you are right in my opinion, but what is the way out for the wl?
If you still believe the wl is a GSD, then the standard talks much about correct structure and correct efficient trot in addition to temperament and work ability, if the wl is better in temperament that doesn't automatically mean it is a better GSD because it's not better in structure and efficient trot. It might be a better sport dog or police dog but then the GSD is not one mission dog, or is it?

Ibrahim 

I think most times what you find to be "extreme" is only because it is when all you expect the dog to do is lay around for 8 hours while at work then lay at your feet when you come home.  the overwhelming majority of dogs I have met have all had working temperaments, what a working dog should have.  Of course they need extra training, they aren't a sit around the house all day dog, they take work.  You don't think this was a part of the standard from the start??????  I wonder if you even know how the breed got its start, read some words by the man who started it, then tell me this wasn't in the standard.

Ibrahim,

 One first has to believe that the WL GSD is on a path to failure and needs an out. I do not believe that it does, the majority of WL's I've been exposed to are not so extreme in drive they are unable to serve in a variety of roles. There are breeders that breed for extreme drives, but it is my experience that they do not represent the majority of WL's. How does the SL's extreme gait serve any usefull purpose if the rest of the dog is unable to work in any meaningful capacity? The majority of SL's are in no way near the standard regarding character or structure and are bred for only one color. What purpose does this serve?  YYYYd

  I will video the trot of some of my dogs for you to look at, there is no lack of efficencey in their movement and yet they have correct (maybe not perfect) structure by standard, not the SV's distorted view.

Zdog, just excuse my mistake, I meant extra excercise not training, I used the wrong word. What you assumed in your post is wrong, for average user top drives is useless and might be a problem, for someone who wants a home guard/watch dog for a busy family what is the use of a dog which needs hours of excercise.
Do you really think every average owner should be like you and dedicate 1/4th of his wake-time for excercising the dog? Do you realize there are people who need a companion only or a pet or a protector and can only spare an hour maybe of leisure time to walk and play or excercise the dog !! Should a dog owner be a sports man him or herself? Do you think those who do shutzhund are the only people who deserve to own a GSD?

Ibrahim