showline bred with workingline - Page 9

Sugarbear,
you are absolutely right! There are some hideous looking showlines out there as well! Just like some workinglines! But it is certainly not the law of natural selection which dogs should be bred and which not! A conscientious breeder uses healthy and titled dogs which are presented to a breed surveyor (Koermeister) and are rated by their temperament and structure!
That is the only way to select dogs suitable for breeding! It should never be left up to individual breeders who feel that their animals are so great that they do not need to be titled or don't need to be shown. The poor and often uninformed puppy buyers will often pay the ultimate price. That is why these complaints keep popping up here. There are too many dogs waiting for homes out there anyway, just ask people like Steph.
Regarding my exchange here with darylehret: I hate negativity and feel that people who have nothing good to say should just stay off the topic but somehow they love the controversy they create. It kills a good discussion and people with some legitimate concern or knowledge decide to stay away.
BTW, Sugarbear: Take a look at my homepage and tell me if you really think that my workinglines look all that different than my showlines? Not really, eh! The reason is that I require my WL to be V-rated and my showlines to be balanced.
Chris
www.vomsilbersee.com

Charlie319
Love the 1966 Sieger, and you illustrate what I was saying. These days this dog would be seen by either 'side' as mediocre.

Show me how this dog is mediocre in the working world? This dog looks like many of the KKl.1 working dogs we see today.

Calling your adversary names in an argument is not likely to sway opinions.  I will agree that three to four decades of breeding won't be undone overnight, but to return to the original concept of a dog that can do it all, will require some things that are not likely to happen.  It would require for sables and black dogs to be given a fair chance at competing in the show-ring, and it would require a change in the emphasis of working lines trials to require a dog that is more in keeping with the original make-up.  It will also require that breeders breed for more than a handful of features and look to breed a more  complete dog.

Culling the SL dogs could only contribute to the demise of the breed by making the genetic pool even more shallow and narrow.

Basko was a fine example of the breed, and in today's reality he'd be considered a marginal competitor in SL and might not be be likely to have a chance in today's WL circles.

felloffher- please don't miscast me as a proponent of the sv or s/l dogs as a whole. I agree with your take on how we got here, but i don't think you offer a realistic solution, but an idealstic one. Silbersee, i am quite familiar with your dogs, in fact, had some dialogue with you about purchasing Pia back when you were mulling over selling her. As i have said, though i have a lot of respect for facets of your program, it is not because your dogs are v rated or not, because i may or may not agree with what a particular governing body says the dog ought to be, especially when the vision of the breed , in practice, has changed so drastically from the outset. If the vision for the breed was one of a working dog, you would not see breeders tripping over themselves trying to bring out coat, pigment, sex char, roach, etc. The top of your "wish list" would far far different. Some traits are going to fall by the wayside, and common sense tells me it's going to be the ones that aren't as important to achieving VA. I just don't think you can have the "perfect" dog consistently who has it all. Concessions are always made, it's part of imperfection.

Hate to burst anyone's bubble, but the "perfect" dog does not really exist as perfection is a moving target and its pursuit is more of a death march than a rush to the finish line.  The best thing to attempt is a balanced dog with the salient characteristics that are considered important by the breeder, or better yet, the breed steward.  That provides a dog that is consistent with the standard and whose variations are not pronounced.  While I agree with Sugarbear that corners may be cut to achieve a VA dog, that does not mean that many SL owners support such practice.  Same can be said on the WL side.  Breeding a top notch GSD will require controling a lot of genetic variances as we begin to meld WL and SL's.  As some have stated, it is currently happening, and there is no reason for it to become a practice.  I, for one, would love to see a dog that is able to win consistently in both the show ring and the sport field.

Silbersee, the way you sandwiched the "pony dips" between the content of my website in the preceding sentence and the type of breeding I "envision" in the following sentence, who would ever guess that you weren't referring to my dogs?  You are completely spot on with my distaste for the SV, though.  Sorry my "negativity" upset you, but justified IMO because the comments about endurance were just too much to not cry "bullshit".  Would you care to address the endurance issue, instead of my manners?

I think a few of you have some misconceptions about the original intent of the GSD. I have pasted a couple of quotes from Capt. Max below to clear these up.

"Horand embodied for the enthusiasts of that time the fulfillment of their fondest dreams. He was big for that period, between 24" and 24 1/2", even for the present day a good medium size, with powerful frame, beautiful lines, and a nobly formed head. Clean and sinewy in build, the entire dog was one live wire. His character was on a par with his exterior qualities; marvelous in his obedient fidelity to his master, and above all else, the straightforward nature of a gentleman with a boundless zest for living. Although untrained in puppy hood, nevertheless obedient to the slightest nod when at this master's side; but when left to himself, the maddest rascal, the wildest ruffian and incorrigible provoker of strife. Never idle, always on the go; well disposed to harmless people, but no cringer, mad about children and always in love. What could not have been the accomplishments of such a dog if we, at that time, had only had military or police service training? His faults were the failings of his upbringing, never of his stock. He suffered from a superfluity of unemployed energy, for he was in Heaven when someone was occupied with him and was then the most tractable of dog."

~Captain von Stephanitz
Originator of the breed

"The most striking features of the correctly bred German Shepherd are firmness of nerves, attentiveness, unshockability, tractability, watchfulness, reliability and incorruptibility together with courage, fighting tenacity and hardness."
- Max von Stephanitz, Father of the German Shepherd Dog

"A good judge . . . must be free from the narrowness of mind which confines its energies to the discovery of failings, or in biased preferences in relation to physical beauty. . . and he must not be influenced either by the ambition or greed of individuals, nor by the only too often ill-directed whim of the market."

The breed club was formed in 1899 and the fist Sch. club in 1901.

So from these quotes were do you see the current working GSD being lead a stray?

What I find amusing is the radical working line folks have no problem finding fault in the showlines but as soon as someone brings up a very real problem in the working lines, up comes the blinders followed by unsupported claims that the problem does not exist. Too funny!

I keep finding references of dogs that are "handler" aggressive, and many seem to be on the working-lines, and doubtless because they've been bred towards such behavioral drives.

My conception of the GSD is that it was a better breed before the split, than after.

The problem in both lines is that they breed for some very narrow and commercial traits.  This season, it is dark sables and big blocky heads.... Who knows what the market whims will command them to breed next year.

I understand that some are all about your show or working-line dog and the ego-blinkers won't allow any other concept in, but the thread is not about which line is superior to the other, but about discussing the breeding of Show-line and working-line dogs.