This is a placeholder text
Group text
by Baerenfangs Erbe on 18 July 2013 - 12:07
As for SAR in the US.
It is NOT a sport. It's a lifestyle and about saving lives, which has absolutely nothing to do with sport and SAR people take their role and dogs very serious. Tell them they are participating in a sport and they will smack you upside down. If you are on a good team, the training you, yourself as the handler go through is quite rigorous and not speaking of the dogs training. As everywhere there are a lot of bad teams out there as well, but SAR is not a sport in the United States.
100 km is nothing. We are talking about 200+ miles each way. I would celebrate if I'd find something within a 100 km distance.
We are talking about people from Vermont, Michigan or even North Carolina driving all the way to Central New York just to get a chance to participate in DockDogs.
Again, you will only understand if you actually live here. Germany is smaller than Texas and Texas is just one single State.
The demographic and density is much different from the United States. So is the infrastructure.
It is NOT a sport. It's a lifestyle and about saving lives, which has absolutely nothing to do with sport and SAR people take their role and dogs very serious. Tell them they are participating in a sport and they will smack you upside down. If you are on a good team, the training you, yourself as the handler go through is quite rigorous and not speaking of the dogs training. As everywhere there are a lot of bad teams out there as well, but SAR is not a sport in the United States.
100 km is nothing. We are talking about 200+ miles each way. I would celebrate if I'd find something within a 100 km distance.
We are talking about people from Vermont, Michigan or even North Carolina driving all the way to Central New York just to get a chance to participate in DockDogs.
Again, you will only understand if you actually live here. Germany is smaller than Texas and Texas is just one single State.
The demographic and density is much different from the United States. So is the infrastructure.
by Blitzen on 18 July 2013 - 12:07
We are fortunate in the Tampa Bay area. OB, dock diving, nose work, agility, rally, protection, herding and maybe SAR, not sure about that, all within an hour or less of driving time. We don't do much during the summer, too hot and humid, the fire ants get to the baited tracks before the dogs, and the mosquitos are bad in the evening. I show indoors now, going for Rally A, $50 for 2 entries and an hour's drive to the site. Not too bad compared to other areas.. Come September the weather will get better and we'll be training outside again. I may still be trialing my GSD for that Rally A, I get really nervous in the ring and have been known to miss stations or go the wrong way 
by Kalibeck on 18 July 2013 - 12:07
I honestly don't think anyone opposes Heath certs like hips/elbows, I certainly don't, I simply couldn't afford to jump through all the hoops required to title my dogs. So, I threw away all the money I spent on my dog, because I wanted to do it right! I still want to do it right, but I can empathize with those who say the heck with it, because a lot of time, money, & sacrifice can go into a dog that is then useless because of a failed cert. I 'wasted' about $16,000.00 on my dogs before I have up any aspirations....my husband had to go over our accounts with me to maker realize that if I wanted to have a home for us & our current dogs, I better chill out on the Schutzhund goals, because I had eaten away our entire emergency cushion, & we were now within 1 crisis of losing our home.
How many breeders can afford that expense & still provide good care, & meet requirements? Not too many!
I don't oppose rules to better the breed, I support them, nearly ruined myself to support them! They're just not realistic, as Barenfang
How many breeders can afford that expense & still provide good care, & meet requirements? Not too many!
I don't oppose rules to better the breed, I support them, nearly ruined myself to support them! They're just not realistic, as Barenfang
by Kalibeck on 18 July 2013 - 13:07
(Cont) Stated! ( sorry got caught off!) jackie harris
by Minicus on 18 July 2013 - 13:07
Just a question for you all. Do you not think it is the puppy buyers whom influences the quality of German Shepherd? If the demand is strictly for pets,show, or sport is it not that which will influence the quality of GSD being provided? If there was still a real need for a truly working GSD then that would be in demand. I am not sure but I don't think that the truly working GSD is in demand anymore.........I may be way off base but those are just my thoughts. I know many have said on here we need a versatile dog....I agree but do you not find people are breeding for specific venues more so than for the versatile GSD? I am not sure if rules will change that it.
by Jenni78 on 18 July 2013 - 13:07
Good point, Jackie.
If you have home responsibilities, you can't run off and leave them all to drive all over the place to train all the time. And especially in places with brutal winters and summers, you do end up driving all over the place to find training. For those that are training one dog actively and have others at home, you'll understand what I mean..you're torn between meeting one's potential and neglecting the others (and your family!) . If you've got dogs and kids to feed, you can't always afford to send a dog for training, if you're even comfortable with that. To provide really good care to multiple dogs is expensive, for sure. If you have family responsibilities on top of that, it can be a dealbreaker for a lot of people. How much better off are the dogs if you're choosing between titling and rendering them homeless because you can't pay your mortgage? Unfortunately, the bulk of dogs I've known whose owners are really die-hard "titles are everything" people aren't really cared for in a way that I find optimal. Many, if not most, spend long hours confined and are fed whatever the owner can buy cheaply in bulk. They don't keep dogs that long, so they don't really see a reason to care for them as a long term friend and investment. I can't condone that if that's the price of breeding only titled dogs.
I've only ever bred an untitled dog once, and the dog was well beyond what most people would ever think to "test," so I'm not saying they don't have any merit at all or they're not desirable for breeding. I have tried to get into SchH. I can't make myself do it for long enough to finish a dog. I am just not buying what's sold at any of the clubs I've been to. I know what I want to see and while I see it once in a while, I can see a lot more in other circumstances. I wholeheartedly agree with Baeranfang on those points- when it was no longer a test and became a competitive sport, that's just it....it's no longer a test! So, when I have a special dog I think would be valuable for breeding, knowing that it needs some type credential to get people to even ask the right questions and consider the dog, I'll put it somewhere with someone who wouldn't rather stab their eyes out with an ice pick, like I would, when I have to do sport training. That way, the dog gets a real home, doesn't live in a huge pack, gets individualized attention and has temperament evaluated the way one can only do when one spends a LOT of time with a dog, gets "worked " and could be titled and bred if worthy, and I'm not taking a second mortgage to do it while feeding my other dogs and child Ol' Roy! That was quite a run-on sentence but I'm too lazy to fix it. It's a shame it's not easier and there isn't more camaraderie as in other countries, as highlighted by Baeranfang.
If you have home responsibilities, you can't run off and leave them all to drive all over the place to train all the time. And especially in places with brutal winters and summers, you do end up driving all over the place to find training. For those that are training one dog actively and have others at home, you'll understand what I mean..you're torn between meeting one's potential and neglecting the others (and your family!) . If you've got dogs and kids to feed, you can't always afford to send a dog for training, if you're even comfortable with that. To provide really good care to multiple dogs is expensive, for sure. If you have family responsibilities on top of that, it can be a dealbreaker for a lot of people. How much better off are the dogs if you're choosing between titling and rendering them homeless because you can't pay your mortgage? Unfortunately, the bulk of dogs I've known whose owners are really die-hard "titles are everything" people aren't really cared for in a way that I find optimal. Many, if not most, spend long hours confined and are fed whatever the owner can buy cheaply in bulk. They don't keep dogs that long, so they don't really see a reason to care for them as a long term friend and investment. I can't condone that if that's the price of breeding only titled dogs.
I've only ever bred an untitled dog once, and the dog was well beyond what most people would ever think to "test," so I'm not saying they don't have any merit at all or they're not desirable for breeding. I have tried to get into SchH. I can't make myself do it for long enough to finish a dog. I am just not buying what's sold at any of the clubs I've been to. I know what I want to see and while I see it once in a while, I can see a lot more in other circumstances. I wholeheartedly agree with Baeranfang on those points- when it was no longer a test and became a competitive sport, that's just it....it's no longer a test! So, when I have a special dog I think would be valuable for breeding, knowing that it needs some type credential to get people to even ask the right questions and consider the dog, I'll put it somewhere with someone who wouldn't rather stab their eyes out with an ice pick, like I would, when I have to do sport training. That way, the dog gets a real home, doesn't live in a huge pack, gets individualized attention and has temperament evaluated the way one can only do when one spends a LOT of time with a dog, gets "worked " and could be titled and bred if worthy, and I'm not taking a second mortgage to do it while feeding my other dogs and child Ol' Roy! That was quite a run-on sentence but I'm too lazy to fix it. It's a shame it's not easier and there isn't more camaraderie as in other countries, as highlighted by Baeranfang.
by Baerenfangs Erbe on 18 July 2013 - 15:07
It is puppy buyers. Most people in the US don't care. As long as they get a 400 dollar puppy from the next craigslist add, they are happy. Most puppy buyers don't even know about Schutzhund, never heard of French Ring or PSA. They don't know what a title is and are impressed when the dog can do a sit down stand or get into a heel position with lazer focus.
by Minicus on 18 July 2013 - 15:07
I would be curious to know what percentage buy puppies just for a pet,sport, or show compared to people looking for a working GSD . Working could be Herding,SAR,and LE etc.... Here in Canada the RCMP have their own breeding program so not sure how many go into LE I know it is different in the USA.
by beetree on 18 July 2013 - 15:07
I disagree. Most pet buyers do care and they are the one's spending $1500 for a pup with a questionable pedigree thinking it means more than it truly does.
by susie on 18 July 2013 - 16:07
Bärenfang, sorry for the expression "sport" for real SAR, but as long as you train only, it´s a kind of sport - as soon as you are in a group like Wesel over here, operating everywhere, willing to help - all my respect!!! These people are doing a great job!
But back to the German Shepherd - within SAR you are able to find a lot of several breeds including the German Shepherd.
In Schuzhund/Ringsport/police work you rarely do find any other breeds than the working dog breeds - the reason: the other breeds are not able to do the job.
And even a lot of the so called working dogs are not able to do the job - you need to find the dogs that are able to do the job - this is called selection.
You need to find the dogs that are fitting within the standard - again: selection.
Even in the best workingline litter there are puppies not suitable for breeding - but you need to find them. Two champions don´t necessarily produce champions only - but without selection you´ll never know.
You are talking about midnight trials, sure there are cheaters everywhere,
BUT THIS IS NOT NORMALITY - NORMALITY IS, and I´m glad it still is, THERE IS A TRIAL AND THERE ARE VISITORS WATCHING THE DOGS.
To say a SchH ( sorry IPO ) trial is no test anymore is ignorant - go out there, start TRAINING several dogs, and you will see the differences by yourself.
IT`S NOT ABOUT TRIALS AND POINTS, IT`S ABOUT WORKING ABILITY, PRESSURE, CONCENTRATION, TEMPERAMENT, AND DRIVES UNDER PRESSURE:..
The months during training for a breeder are more important than the trial itself.
After training and comparing you may decide if this dog really is breedworthy or not.
Right now any European only needs to take a videoclip of a sable workingline on leash biting in a puppy sleeve without any pressure and the dog is sold, or take some nice pictures of a mediocre black and red showline, and this dog is sold, too - and all of this does happen because people are not willing to learn
I forgot: A couple of weeks later the puppies out of these imported dogs are sold for a lot of money, the bitch or the stud is paid back from the litters, time to make cash in the future.
The new owners, who paid a lot of money for their mediocre puppy out of mediocre parents do breed their pups 1 !/2 years later - they have to be breedworthy, because they are out of imported stock and they have been expensive - so they have to be good... and their dog is sooo calm and sooo sweet and sooo smart - the perfect German Shepherd!
But back to the German Shepherd - within SAR you are able to find a lot of several breeds including the German Shepherd.
In Schuzhund/Ringsport/police work you rarely do find any other breeds than the working dog breeds - the reason: the other breeds are not able to do the job.
And even a lot of the so called working dogs are not able to do the job - you need to find the dogs that are able to do the job - this is called selection.
You need to find the dogs that are fitting within the standard - again: selection.
Even in the best workingline litter there are puppies not suitable for breeding - but you need to find them. Two champions don´t necessarily produce champions only - but without selection you´ll never know.
You are talking about midnight trials, sure there are cheaters everywhere,
BUT THIS IS NOT NORMALITY - NORMALITY IS, and I´m glad it still is, THERE IS A TRIAL AND THERE ARE VISITORS WATCHING THE DOGS.
To say a SchH ( sorry IPO ) trial is no test anymore is ignorant - go out there, start TRAINING several dogs, and you will see the differences by yourself.
IT`S NOT ABOUT TRIALS AND POINTS, IT`S ABOUT WORKING ABILITY, PRESSURE, CONCENTRATION, TEMPERAMENT, AND DRIVES UNDER PRESSURE:..
The months during training for a breeder are more important than the trial itself.
After training and comparing you may decide if this dog really is breedworthy or not.
Right now any European only needs to take a videoclip of a sable workingline on leash biting in a puppy sleeve without any pressure and the dog is sold, or take some nice pictures of a mediocre black and red showline, and this dog is sold, too - and all of this does happen because people are not willing to learn
I forgot: A couple of weeks later the puppies out of these imported dogs are sold for a lot of money, the bitch or the stud is paid back from the litters, time to make cash in the future.
The new owners, who paid a lot of money for their mediocre puppy out of mediocre parents do breed their pups 1 !/2 years later - they have to be breedworthy, because they are out of imported stock and they have been expensive - so they have to be good... and their dog is sooo calm and sooo sweet and sooo smart - the perfect German Shepherd!
Contact information Disclaimer Privacy Statement Copyright Information Terms of Service Cookie policy ↑ Back to top
