DM Death Statistics in the GSD among the PDB members - Page 8

--->My vet had another GSD breeder come in very worried over a litter of puppies. They had the sire & dam DM results come back as AT Risk & Carrier.
They then tested all 8 puppies. Almost all puppies results were normal, except 2 were carriers. But does this make sense to you? It didn't to them.
So they re-tested the sire & dam through a different place. Now the results came back - Normal & Normal for parents.
They then re-tested the 2 puppies listed as carriers. Second test still showed the results as them being carriers.

That is one of my big concerns- progeny of clear sire and dams getting an automatic pass, with no generational follow up research. Thats just irresponsible. I am sorry, but that is NOT science. Its guessing and playing Russian Roulette. Would you ask them to please fill in my survey regarding the OFA DM DNA Test, PLEASE!!!
http://www.mzjf.com/forms/form.cdform.php 
 
Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
BE PROACTIVE!
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate  

Nobody has said that show lines alone could be responsible! Let's stay logical. But it is very plausible that intensive in/line breeding and severe back massing could be contributing factors. It happens that ASL and GSL have more of this. It also happens that incesful type breeding will eventually lead to more chronic health maladies. This has been proven. But we can't have an intelligent discussion about this because some are so sensitive that they won't even examine factual information when it goes against their type. Incredible! People on this forum did berate others because they didn't buy into the test. Man up and admit you were premature in judging others for not seeing the test as you do, now that we know the limitations of the test. We need to look at these things critically, and objectively, in our quest to improve the breed. I personally feel that DM is primarily a result of excessive and intensive line breeding and back massing, as I have not had a problem with it in 40 years in the breed. But I also stay away from those type breeding practices, time will tell if this is accurate or not. But for my experiences and the dogs I deal with, there is not a reason for me to test or factor testing in my acquisitions unless I acquire stock I think the chances are greater. This does not mean that DM cannot show up anywhere,(before someone who can't handle what I said try's to extrapolate it into only some lines have it), but right now there seems to be a pattern to where it seems to occur more, and my experiences are not leading me to over react on my part. For others who have different experiences, it obvious they may look at things differently and take other measures.

Guess I would have had a better chance of waking up today looking like Angelina Jolie thn having anyone offer to help me ask the U of FLA to make it easier to donate to DM. Oh well.... so much for wanting more than one avenue of research...

Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
BE PROACTIVE!
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate  

Hi Majorie, I'll pass your site info to my to give to the other GSD breeder. I'm sure they would be happy to fill out the health data. They are still confused over the results.

I'm all for donating to help research to make the GSD a healthier dog in the future.

Gustav, that was the point I was trying to bring up about the heavy line breeding. DM is showing up majority of the time in show lines both American & German, it seems
due to the heavy line breeding  / in-breeding that has been done. When you look at the working lines that DM has starting to appear in they have the same heavy line breeding on certain dogs.
It seems it's not as much as certain lines / dogs as it is the heavy line breeding on certain dogs that could be one of the cause of DM & many other disorders for our breed.

Working lines seem to not be as affect in the past because majority didn't in-breed or heavily line breed. You see this changing now with heavy line breeding on certain famous dogs
& now those resulting offspring seem to be the ones cropping up with DM. It also seems some lines crossed together seem to produce the same results.

Cphudson, I was very much aware of the DM situation and the patterns in place. Been aware for years, but you get tired of people not being able to discuss things that need to be discussed without being called a basher. It's not about bashing, it's about a consequence that is understandable when you have these breeding practices over years and years. I have lost a lot of respect for people who let their feelings and likes allow them to turn a blind eye to the health and mental health issues that arise from inbreeding/back massing practices of some lines. As for WGWL, I started singing the dangers of them following tha same breeding practices(especially on T Litter Nabarschaft), years ago on this forum and other places. The same health and mental health issues will increase with them, if they continue down their current path.....it will just take longer because they are not as saturated as badly yet. But here is the insanity, with such a clear possibility of the DM health issue maybe having roots in the long term effects of inbreeding/ back massing, you would think that responsible breeders of these dogs would be leading the charge into looking into whether or not there is causation there. Instead, many want to find a magic bullet that will allow them to keep on breeding in such narrow gene pool and escape the consequences that are inevitable. Is it an addiction?, is it likes are more important than health, I am not sure, but it's sad when people lose perspective of good and bad.

--- >  I think this club could petition the AKC to donate funds to The Canine Health Foundation earmarked for GSD DM research. They have spent almost one million following 14 dogs that served for less than 10 days at Ground Zero. Ironically they left out the K-9's that spent many months there, many of which died from one of the leukemias and other cancers that could have been related to their duty there. I do not know how they prioritize their projects.
 
One word answer- Politics :( That is how they have always operated.

A woman in my support group contacted  Dr Coates and here is what she said of the exchange 
She said she emailed and called just about everyone under the sun in the past 2 weeks. She contacted Dr. Coates herself regarding some DM questions, who was less than helpful. The support group woman asked DR Cooates about sensory loss at one point and she answered (not very well ) every question BUT that one. She sent Dr Coates  another e-mail asking the same thing again and added that she talked to people all over the world who have DM/CDRM and alot of them complain of the sensory loss (even the newbies). They are mostly all GSDs. IShe asked Dr Coates if all those dogs DON'T have DM.. She got no response to that email.

The response of Dr Coates to her about the necropsy was unsettling . She said that with her dog's two surgeries and the possiblity of some other disease ( the sensory loss) that they may not be able to get an accurate DM dx.  She is going to cut her dog open only to have an inconclusive result??   She wants to have her dx'ed  for herself and for the benefit of her neuros and vets that believe her dog has DM.. She said *Pardon my french, but after the emails the sent and the lack of response, I could give two sh*ts about her damn study*. She has an appointment with her first neuro. he's the one who did her first surgery and she going to ask if there is any place else that can do the analysis to dx DM.

There is just no valid reason why a necropsy wouldnt show DM. Either the disease is present upon necropsy, or it is not! This is just pure unadulterated BS! I put another call into the OFA to discuss the carrier result of the progeny of the 2 *clear* sire and dam. This is exactly what has me carrying on about giving an automatic clear to progeny of tested parents, without any follow up. GRRRRRRRRRRRR!

Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
BE PROACTIVE!
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate  

Dr Coates says there is no sensory loss in DM. Has anyone with a GSD that had DM, NOT had their dog experience sensory loss??????????

BTW, only ONE person PM'd me with an offer to help me get the U of Fla set up a paypal account for DM donations. I find that odd, since so many seem to be interested in DM. Lip service wont help get funds for research.

I called the OFA today to report the carrier status of the progeny of the clear sire and dam. I left a message but did not get a return phone call. See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. Ignorance is bliss, I guess.....I will email as proof that I am informing them of this development.

Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
BE PROACTIVE!
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate  

Marjorie, it sure doesn't seem possible that Dr. Coates is operating with the same definition of 'sensory loss' as I understand the term,  but then again, I'm not sure that I'M understanding the term in the same frame of reference as you or the woman from your support group who spoke to Dr. Coates about it recently.  MY experience with DM in dogs, both my own as well as those belonging to others, is that there IS a progressive decline in the body's ability to recognize tactile stimulation when it occurs, and to respond appropriately to that sensation--in fact, that's one of the assessment exercises used as an aid in diagnosing DM...the application of pressure to the webbing between the toes of the hind feet, to measure how quickly the dog's body responds by pulling the foot away from the pressure.  As the demyelinization continues, there is less response and reaction when pressure is applied to the webbing, and that unresponsiveness to tactile stimulation progresses as well, eventually causing declining or complete loss of the ability to perceive tactile stimulation further up the hind limbs and onward. 

If THAT is what is meant by the term 'sensory loss', and Dr. Coates is defining the term in the same way yet still claims that such a loss does not occur with DM, I'd find that extremely worrisome.

As for offering to assist with setting up a PayPal account for U of FL's research, I can't speak for others, but I will tell you that I'm no more familiar with how that would be done than you are--it's not the sort of thing in my wheelhouse, hence my lack of volunteering for it.