German Shepherd Bloodlines - Page 7

Gigante, not really sure what you are saying in reference to my post.
@Susie, I agree with you and Hexe on foundation females being very important to programs. In the seventies, I used to sit at table and listen to Ernie Loeb speak about breeding and German dogs. I am pretty sure Ernie was a member of SV for close to if not seventy years and judge in America for over 40 years. The information you get from people like that are priceless, in my opinion.

Gustav, Thats was directed to VK. Thanks

 

With regards to hexe post the females were the working dogs and the type or conformation was left to the male he pushed the working ability from the female, almost always. I like this as well. That's what he stated but as I recall he was also a fan of Bernd.

Gigante, that's my understanding of their program as well.

I don't believe a bloodline can be established, produce a consistent type and endure for decades unless it has a very strong female line as its foundation. Doesn't matter what type of animal is being bred...unless breeding to create terminal animals, it holds true for all species.

You’re also completely discounting the fact that a line becomes known for something due to the type of training that the foundation receives. Lines known for herding genetics? The breeder probably trained primarily in herding, breeder proved their lines in herding trials, other shepherds noticed, bought dogs from them when they needed a good herding dog. Lines known for aggression? The breeder probably trained primarily with aggression and so the dogs resorted to aggression and generation after generation the aggression stayed with the line because the training was more suited to a dog of that type and brought out the aggression in the dogs.

I personally take very little value from the dogs that are 6+ generations back in a dog’s pedigree. Most of the information about the dogs 5 generations back is very biased and subjective so now start going back further, who knows what you’ll get. I’ve watched many videos of dogs that people claim to be A, B, and C and none of the videos prove A, B, or C. Usually those same people will prove their lack of knowledge or understanding of dog behavior with other videos…and these are people that claim to have been in the sport for decades. This dog has so much power and aggression! Video shows the dog coming into the blind, hackled, sitting sleeve side and barking straight at the sleeve, looking around and waiting for the handler to get behind them and call them out asap…but plenty of old timers will tell you all about the power and aggression that dog had.

Vk, I am not that knowledgeable to say my dog is this type or that type of bloodline. I can know if a dog is good or not so good, I got Several dogs from Jinopo, some are better than others, I did not provide best training and job to give definite answers.
I also bought 2 dogs from Duke which I like so much, I guess good dogs can be bought from more than one breeder.
This discussion is a good one, breed benefits when there are various schools of breeding, buyers benefit too.
Gustav, Hans, Bavarian, Gigante, Susie, Hexe and few more who posted here have good opinions for one like me to think of.
I don't know what school is better, really, so I did not talk specifically about the 5 bloodlines theory, I only tried to emphasize on line breeding and knowledge of old dogs.
As I said, Susie has a valid point, but to say that no one knows the old dogs is not true, I heard Gustav, Preston and Mackenzie, to name few, talk and describe few old dogs they knew, learned from them and I consider them as knowledgeable non-commercial benefitters.
Hans is one of the most knowledgeable people in dog world, he is a breeder, he may have interests to promote his line, but most of knowledgeable people have self interest, I assume sincerity till otherwise proven

Here’s where I have an issue with line breeding and the assumption that the line produces X…if a puppy is line bred 5-5 on a dog known for X, the owner find out that the dog their puppy is line bred is known for X, all future observations of the puppy are based off of the knowledge that the puppy has a higher chance of showing X…even though that 5-5 breeding is just 2/32 of the total dogs in the pedigree. Generally there isn’t knowledge if the dogs in the fourth generation, produced by that dog, showed that trait, if the dogs in the third did as well, and on and on. These dogs just get pegged as being X based on the biased knowledge/outdated information that the original dog produced X. There doesn’t need to be proof that the dogs produced by that dog were indeed X, they were always going to be subjectively looked at as being X due to the dog that came before them.

And because so few sons from heavily bred to dogs ever become as heavily bred as their fathers, it’s very difficult to truly peg where certain traits are coming from in a particular dog’s pedigree. Most 5 generation pedigrees have 3-4 well known dogs and the rest were just regional/club level dogs that no one has any information on. Why can’t one of those dogs be the true producer of whatever someone is seeing in their puppy?

  hexe: Not for nothing, but with all this talk of following the male lines, it bears noting that the Kirschental lines are based on the female Blanka von Mummelsee, not any particular male. In the US, among the working line GSDs, I submit that one of the most consistent bloodlines that's been established is those of Von Sontausen--which all go back to a single foundation bitch, Metzundyali's Sonja, through her homebred daughter Cora von Sontausen..

 

That  may be true but  that is a point ( true one) without destinction.   Females have male lines too. For example Blanka von Mummelsee was  3rd line - Klodo v Boxberg.  

Likewise, males have female lines.
Very difficult to produce pups without male and female, unless cloning.

Looking at a whole breed you do not appoint female bloodlines, that would be inappropriate, because on total breed effect of female is negligible due to limited offspring.
On the other hand, for a single kennel effect of bitch is very much considerable as she is the basis of a single kennel.
Never heard of sons and daughters being related to the female in any breed or race