The decline of the German Shepherd character - Page 7

BlackMalinois -  I agree with you that a title does not make a dog a working dog.  The qualification title shows that the dog has learning power within the discipline of the title, providing of course, that the title is not paid for.  This learning power and title is where a dog can begin to take on the full time work as a true "Working Dog" if people are minded to do so.   Working dogs do not have to be limited to protection work.  For example the Kirchental Kennel bred many true working sheep dogs that were used every day and some of these dogs are behind many of the show dogs today.  This is the best example of that I can think of as an example that working dogs and show dogs can come together in a breeding programme.  There is a video somewhere showing Karl Fuller's VA female Quitta v Kirschental working sheep at 11 years of age.  Karl Fuller was a full time shepherd.

This comment from Susie is 100% right when she said "Our breed is a working dog breed, and there is a minimum EVERY dog has to be capable of prior to breeding".

Mackenzie

 

I want to dwell on the last paragraph of the thread. imagine if all breeders had enough time to train and  have a meaningful relationship with each dog. Each dog would have; more exercise, love, and purpose in life. Each handler would learn more about the breed. If each handler did IPO they would need to get along with a least one other person, a helper. The net work would grow as every helper works a few to many dogs. Each owner/handler desires to reach a goal higher than before. They will appreciate  a better natural dog. They will look to get better specimens. They will find out how a natural dog trains easier. Then you would see some who want to show off that dog and their training and go to trials and shows. trials will benifit  a organized group. The people on the side lines would all have something to talk about, but maybe they would stop talking [ typing] and go train thier dogs and join the network. pay it forward! happy new yrar! 

And what happens to the majority of dogs that can't perform in sport? Because all gsd are not created equally.

Mackenzie-  I did take note to your post about newb owners and I agree.  I grew up with Goldens as a kid and treated my WL no different.  It's not a majestic beast that a newb cannot own (my opinion, others will disagree)- if a handler has any sort of work ethic/time/passion if they get a WL of balanced drives and bombproof nerves and seek an experienced trainer I believe they will be successful. Yes mistakes will be made but when they are easily fixed I believe that says a lot about the dog and the breeder.  The handler learns and gains experience.  

Which is why I feel a breeder that have potential buyers go through a rigorous round of questions makes sense.

When I read the below quote I think of my dog... Be honest with yourself, can you?  

"The most striking features of the correctly bred German Shepherds are firmness of nerves, attentiveness, unshockability, tractability, watchfulness, reliability and incorruptibility together with courage, fighting tenacity and hardness." 
- Max von Stephanitz

 

So, depending on who is talking,  IPO titles prove nothing; OB titles prove nothing, herding trials, HGH titles, V ratings all mean nothing, breed surveys mean nothing. Those who don't think titles of any kind are important are probably not titling their dogs - am I right?  Trust me, this is a breed worthy dog because I say so? They just know their dogs are breed worthy and we should take their word for it when they say - my dog is a good dog and is breed worthy? Trust me.......

If your dog can do it, then prove it and title it in some meaningful venue.  Those who can, do. How else can people judge whether or not your dog is truly breedworthy? Of course titling is not perfect and some dogs that are not breedworthy will manage to title for a number of reasons and some decent dogs will not title due to environment, owner reluctance, or crappy trainers. However, odds are the majority of dogs that title are going to be better at specific jobs than dogs without titles from parents without titles. 

If you need a service dog, wouldn't you rather have a dog with a history of service dogs in its pedigree? Want to show in conformation, wouldn't you want a dog with V rated parents with KKL1's? Looking for a competitive OB dog? Look for a dog with parents that are titled in OB. The deeper the pedigree is with titled dogs, the better are the odds of getting a GSD that will be what you want. Odds of getting a suitable dog out of untitled parents and grandparents is really a shot in the dark unless you are very familiar with the dog, it's owner/trainer, pedigree depth,  and you should probably be able to actually see that dog work in the venue you are interested in.

Titling can't be all there is, but it's more than - trust me, this dog is a good one but I don't title my dogs because ________________ fill in the blank. Sure there are breeders who have earned the priviledge of resting on their own laurels and who no longer title their breeding dogs for valid reasons. If you know who they are, you're going to be able to get a good dog without worrying about titles. If you don't know then you'd better take titles seriously and factor them into your breeding decisions.

 

Templars - The quote from vom Stephanitz  are the very things that I have always strived for as breeder, handler, trainer and owner.  If you ever become breeder you will realise how difficult these aims are to achieve.

You will find as your training now begins that this breed is very different to the Labs that you grew up with.  Best of luck with your puppy.

Mackenzie

"The deeper the pedigree is with titled dogs, the better are the odds of getting a GSD that will be what you want. Odds of getting a suitable dog out of untitled parents and grandparents is really a shot in the dark unless you are very familiar with the dog, it's owner/trainer, pedigree depth,  and you should probably be able to actually see that dog work in the venue you are interested in."


Dogs in Germany can't have litters registered without being titled first....so why is this thred happing....."The decline of the German Shepherd character"

Mac,

There is a difference between a working dog and a sport dog. Many "working line" GSDs have never set foot or tooth into anything that wasn't the choreographed routine of a Schutzhund/IPO trial. Ask the folks who compete in Ringsports (French, Mondio, KNVP, etc), and they'll make the same complain about WL GSDs as have been already made about showline GSDs: "bred only for a single purpose, can only do a single job," except they change the phrase "run in circles" to "bite if a sleeve shoved in their face."

Not to mention there are more than a few WL breeders out there who are putting dogs from known bloodlines together, and selling them based merely on lineage. These dogs might have great ancestors, but they've never even set foot on a tracking field, much less done bitework. Still, these breeders who, by definition are "worling line" breeders because they -are- breeding dogs defined as "working line" dogs, are saying how great their puppies will be at protection, or IPO... Right. Great pedigrees do not a great dog make.

Show me a pedigree, I'll tell you what the dog comes from. Show me the dog, I'll tell you what he appears to be. Show me what he produces, I'll tell you what he really is. 

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Those folks who work and trial their Schutzhund GSDs know there's a lot more too it than simply glomping on a sleeve, and that the sleeve is not often shoved into the dog's face. Those who compete in show know there's a lot more to "going in a circle." If it were that easy, any WL dog who could walk could do it. Walk in a circle? How hard can that be? 

I'm not talking about "the look" to place highly. I'm talking about the simple act of "going in a circle" and standing still afterwards. Training a dog to behave proper in the ring is no different than any other training. Ring training requires the dog to ignore distractions on the sideline, move in response to the handler's cues, ignore dogs fore and aft, stand proper for exam... Few things are more embarassing Conformation than a showline dog that is clearly not ring-trained, balks, tries to pick fights with other dogs, or bite the judge when he checks teeth and testicles.

*shrugs* I've competed in many dog sports, from AKC conformation to Iron Dog Events. [what is Iron Dog? click here]. I say the proof's in the pudding. If someone talks about how great their dog is: prove it! Get out there, show the dog. I've yet to have done any sport with my dog (or, with some dogs multiple sports), that didn't require time, work, and TRAINING! 

An untrained workingline GSD is not going to magically excel at bitesports or tracking. An untrained showline dog won't do well in the ring. 

What irks me is people get into pissing contests about what constitutes a "real" dog, the folk who get off patting themselves on the back, and disparaging anything that's different. Folk who don't stop to think about the fact that -any!- owner who is doing more than the average pet owner. Most owners can't even train their dog to have basic leash manners, much less get outside rain or shine to practice obedience, gait-work, weave-poles, or bitework.

While we're talking about what we wish would happen with the breed -- whether that ship's sailed or not -- I'm going to say:

I wish people would just f-ing start respecting anyone who gets out there and actually does work with their dog! Any work! From therapy to conformation, to dock diving! I think -anyone!- who spends time with their dog, forming a bond and pursuing a goal deserves recognition! 

People just need to repsect the work that goes into training a dog to compete and do well, regardles of sport.

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  Personal story time, since my post's not already long enough, lol: I had one so-called "expert" tell me Iron Dog isn't a measure of a GSD's capability. He said "that's weight-pull bulldog bullshit." Eh, no. It's a 1.5mile obstacle course for dog and handler, with bitework for my dog, and live-fire shooting for me. "Yes, my dog bit," I told him. Then I added: "And yes, I can hit a bulls-eye." I bred, trained, and handled them. We placed 1st in Iron Dog.   As for ring-training, I honestly prefer NOT to have a double handler. I like to solo-handle. Some show folks have said "a dog without a double handler won't go as well, won't place as high." *shrugs* I've bred, trained, and solo-handled them as well. We've placed 1st in Conformation.    Perhaps I'll never place top at a national, but at the end of the day, I'm ok with that. I don't care about politics, and if anyone wants to come over I'll show them my dogs (showline, workingline, and the terrier!) doing whatever I ask them to do. My dogs can do a handful of things. Cute tricks like "shake" and "play dead." Bitework, obedience in solo- and brace-form... and yes, the terrier does everything too.    

Have a look, some have seen this before, but it's appropriate, now.




http://www.asuperiorgsd.com/p2p.html

Well, Iron Dog sure looks impressive to me. There will always be people who belittle another's accomplishments in the GSD world. My response to them is - try it and get back to us.