German rules for German Shepherds - Page 7

I will add that when I started out I wanted nothing more than to train & title my dogs, but the cost was absolutely prohibitive. Were I a kept woman, & had someone to pay my bills, whilst I worked to pay for, & worked my dogs-I may have been able to afford it, but I'm a working woman, an LPN, & I have to spend most of my time at work, & most of my $$ on my dogs, & maintaining my retired husband & I.
So, I gave up any dream of titling my dogs. & of breeding someday. I wonder how many other responsible breeders would go by the wayside if we had SV's rules here? I know the back yard breeders would continue happily on....after all, you don't get a pedigree with a designer dog either, but they are popular & being sold for small fortunes! jackie harris

I should have known...
I never said the German dogs are the best of the world -
I never said every titled dog is breedworthy
I never said that there are no good breeders in the USA...

What I did say:

As soon as the German regulations would be the duty for pedigrees ( and this decision is up to the clubs, not up to AKC ) all the backyard breeder wouldn´t be able to make money any more and a lot of them would vanish.
There would be more clubs, because the breeders would need to train and title their dogs.
There would be less German Shepherds, because there are several, that are not breed worthy following these regulations.
There would be a standard, no more hearsay, or "I told you, so it has to be" any more.
In the result people would start to understand this wonderful breed a little bit better, and they would know how to select.

Baerenfangs Erbe, you are German, you are out of a breeder family - you should know how to train a dog for IPO.
You should be able to teach interested people how to do it. You shouldn´t need to pay fees for a trainer.
And you don´t need to walk a dog off leash in town for any training.
For SAR I would have to drive more than 100 km one way, and I´m living in the middle of Northrhein Westphalia - this is no American problem, it´s just an "exotic" sport.

You know that clubs in Germany are that cheap because people don´t pay much club fees but pay their fees by working for the club, nationwide.
A local trainer isn´t paid - a helper isn´t paid - a tracklayer isn´t paid - a secretary isn´t paid - a president isn´t paid.
All this people and a lot more do this FOR FREE, we do work in the kitchen to earn money for the club, we do bake cakes and sell beer
Everybody has to do what he knows best - the same in any club.
Most of the clubs do rent the property they work on, almost all of our club homes are built by ourselves, stone after stone, they didn´t grow over night.
My club had to travel twice during the last years due to new town regulations - a lot of work, but it´s possible, if people work together.

Why are people against this idea?
As soon as trials/shows/breed surveys would be mandatory, there would be more clubs.
The huge amount of German clubs does exist, because people need to trial their dogs before breeding. Without these regulations there would be far less clubs - that´s plain and simple logic.
And all of these clubs had to be founded at one point, but they were founded by working dog lovers, not by salesmen.
There are cheaters worldwide, there are a lot of them in Germany, too - but at least in my country people do have the possibility to train and to learn about this breed without paying a lot of money.

A lot of people in your country are talking about "working dogs" but aren´t even able to select their own breeding stock, because they never worked their own dogs.
AFTER training and learning by themselves people are able to see a good dog, and THAN they can decide wether they want to breed for money or they want to breed for the working ability of the German Shepherd. Without foundation they will never know.

Right now ( and "now" means for decades ) all the Americans stating our rules are useless at best are buying our washed out working- and showline dogs, there is a "market" for workinglines to the States, showlines to Asia, and my landsmen do earn  a lot of money from all of you.

Meanwhile I do see a lot of good puppies in your country, not trained, not bred, lost for the breed.
But why at all should I care?

Only as a sidenote: I knew most of you wouldn´t like my idea, but I´m shocked that almost no one is with me about HD/ED certifications as a strict rule prior to breeding.

You know if there were to be set up a sv style organization in the USA and you go to the most well known breeders and say hey this is voluntary but every puppy you sell you put in the contract the dog can not be bred until the dog is titled and a USA version of the breed survey is done. Once that is achieved the dog is given a full registration including breeding rights.  you slowly add in more breeders and in the long term things would be cleaned up some. You will never get rid of all the back yard breeders but you can slow it down. 

By starting with the top breeders and trainers others will want to get in when they realize it is having a positive effect on the breed in the USA. The subpar breeders will not but an education outreach program aimed at buyers would help reduce things some. 

Issue out registrations and pedigrees (while also keeping AKC regs as well limited until titled)

Troopscott:  add the words "and health test cleared" to the end of your 
last sentance and I'd agree with you.

Great forum! ; Susie is making a valid point [s] . It is not a problem in the SV system that makes bad dogs in Germany, it is poor implementation of the rules. The German Breeding factorys exist because of market demand. the American pup mills [ same difference] exist for the same reason. Please look at complete system before saying it is wrong or it does not work. Finding a bad example does not cancel the positive effect a sanctioned breeding plan would have. The population who crys out '' The AKC [ or SV, or UScA ] can not tell me what to breed are missing the point. Some one should point out first what not to breed. Pizza from Italy is seen as good so let's make ''Pizza heaven resturants''  in every city in the USA. Most likely a different pizza. $400 dollar puppys ''back in the day equals fifty cent gallons of Gas [ i wish! ] I have titled a GSD to UD and know the amount of training/work it took to accomplish. A UD is not the same as Korung! The autonomous nature of UNited states works when we all pull together in one direction.

The subpar breeders will not but an education outreach program aimed at buyers would help reduce things some. 

This is the first time I have EVER heard anyone suggest anything like this. It is a fine idea whose time has come.

Susie,

I like what you said and your whole idea.
And I am hoping that some day things will change.

Still, for now,  it is up to the breeders to make an effort in breeding better dogs....even if the CKC or AKC ask for noting more than registered parents to register a litter.
We, as breeders, have the option to buy a pink-pedigree puppy....and to breed a female to a Breed-surveyed stud.
That would help.
I know a breeder who does that in Quebec, because she can't afford to breed titled females exclusively....but her females are always bred to studs with working titles and certified H/E.

I've been working hard with my GSD stud to title him (In French Ring though) and had his hips and elbows certified + his DM test done....and he is my pride.
It does represent a lot of work and yes, the club was not close to were I was living.

....so, I understand your point and I like this thread a lot. =)

troopscott, 
One flaw in your plan is this. Many a breeder gives up after 3-5 years.
Where does that leave you when it's time to lift breeding restrictions?
So much can go wrong with that plan. And it has for people. What if 
you can no longer contact the 'breeder' to lift the restrictions? Then what?
This is why the SV system is better laid out, you get your HD-ED, you 
pass your working titles, and your korung if you choose, and you register
your puppies. No 'middleman' to 'what if'. 

There are a number of ways to get the breed going in the right direction in the US. I don't think it's fair to say that US breeders don't care enough to want to change the way they do business. In this country, there is no way to implement any changes no matter how beneficial they may be. It will always be up to the breeders to do the right thing all on their own.

The right thing has different meanings to different people. Some think written sales agreements are imperative. Some won't buy a dog if there is a sales contract, they own the dog and feel as if they should be able to do as they please without being tied to the breeder. Some think it's fine to use unxrayed dogs without health checks while others would never consider it. Some will use dogs that are not eligible for hip or elbow certs because they have the notion that their dogs are so good in other ways that it's not necessary to have normal hips and/or elbows or they convince themselves and their buyers that it's not genetic, it was the result of an injury or some other factor that is not inherited. On and on.

Regulating dog breeders in the US is never going to happen. Unlike the SV, the GSDCA has no say whatsoever over who can breed. Also, unlike the SV, and one does not need to be a member of the GSDCA in order to register a litter of GSD's. It's not apples to apples by any means.

Actually while I hate that you can pretty much do what you want, I also LOVE the freedom you have. There are so many different ways. IPWDA, NAPWDA, IPO, Herding, PSA, French Ring, RH, is up and coming...not speaking of Therapy Dogs and Nosework, the possibility to test a dog out the wazoo are ENDLESS IF you have the resources for it.

Whereas in Germany you are restricted to IPO, HGH or RH.


The demographics for the whole SV system in the United  States will make it impossible and you will only realize and understand it if you actually LIVE, WORK AND TRAIN in the US.

As an outsider you will and cannot grasp what it takes to title a dog in the US. Just the gas money alone will prevent a lot of people from being able to drive to training.