Schutzhund Dog and Personal Protection Dog - Page 7

@ duke... that's what I expected of you. Lol

Here's an example.....here is a good training excersise to do with a Police K9 or PPD, but bad for the average SchH dog.

 

Yes ok I see video. I do same my polis program.
IPO dog is not stret dog
My polis dog program teach dog strong in mind. Teach fight criminal with weapon teach fight many criminal.
IPO dog work stret will die.

I always liked the song, "Blinded by the Light" by Manfred Mann and the Boss for you newbies....lol
On a serious note, training and genetics has a lot to do with the ultimate direction of the dog. The dog that Melanie showcased in the video is a sch dog that can and will do either PPD or Police work. How do I know?, besides seeing the dog work before, because the dog has been trained for both and done the due diligence. But there are many Sch dogs and Sch people out there that have never worked a muzzle, a suit, a underjacket sleeve, worked in building atnight up on the third floor, Hech there are many sch dog that their owner wont let them work on anything but a perfect helper with perfect presentation.....pleaseeee! I know the thinking, grips, points, dont want my dog messed up.....but truthfully if a presentation or lack of presentation can adversely affect your dog that much....he aint all that anyway. The dog that works out of intensity and commitment to the task will try to dominate whatever is in front of it. There are many out there doing Sch that have dogs that can transition, and there are many out there doing sch that train there dogs with muzzlework and suits, and off training fields, etc. But Folks, there are a lot of people who have never seen there dogs doing these things off the field, and for me a person like Melanie who works her dogs in both venues is far more creditable in assessing this question than a one dimensionable person in either PPD or Sch. JMO

I never ever said that every schutzhund will protect his handler. I said that I have seen many that will in a heartbeat and I will use the term "practical situation" as I've seen the "real life scenario" used very loosely. Like say walking down a street with your dog on a leash and someone approaches you in an unfriendly manner is a much more practical situation. Or storming through the fron door of your home. And to say that some of the schutzhund dogs I have known in my time will not protect his handler in these "practical" situations is absolutely absurd. The dogs I speak of are not on the end of every schutzhund handlers leash. Be truthful with what is on the end of your leash and wash dogs out that don't have it. There are many dogs trained in schutzhund that are "tested" in other manners as well and it doesn't take full out ppd training to have peace of mind in a practical situation with a dog primarily trained in schutzhund. That is all I have to say about this. I am done here.

Oops. Why would that training excercise be bad to do with a schutzhund dog? I see NOTHING there that would be BAD. What is the average schutzhund dog? Maybe I should answer it. The average schutzhund dog should coincide with the average schutzhund trainer. Someone who trains for fun & like to see what his/her dog is capable of so why would that training excercise be BAD for the average dog handler team? Lol. I see absolutely NOTHING SPECIAL about the dog or the training excersise and have seen some schutzhund dogs take that training with flying colors....lol. I seea dog with some civil drive which apparently many people here with the exception of me have not seen at their local club. Sad... do your clubs never "go to the woods" as we call it? Put a muzzle on a dog ? Never like to see what your dog will do off the training field? If that training is bad for YOUR SCHUTZHUND DOG I suggest you find a new dog. If one is trying to win the nationals you wouldn't want to do that every weekend but it surely wouldn't hurt to do it in the off season persee for the fun of it :) now I am done here

vom i think they say it would be bad because its targetting the man and not the sleeve but i think most dogs that do that will still easily go for the sleeve and be able to switch back and fourth? Also look at all the layers that dog is pulling off soon as the jacket is slipped she has to re engange the bad guy. In sport once the sleeve is slipped you dont want the dog to re bite the man.


SO if we do that exercise on our dogs a lot our dogs will expect to re engage the man after the jacket is off to re bite and re attack in sport you do not want that it is very dangerous for the decoy.

I lvoe that exercise btw i have done hidden sleeve and jacket with my dog never that exercise tho very nice.

vom a good sport dog should be able to protect his handler I agree if they can't do that I don't consider them good dogs anymore. But how many can do that now we don't know? I would not buy a dog from parents that have not at least proven themselves on the street as a police dog or at least as a ppd/security etc.

Yes bad because it can be dangerous for your helper, especially if you do not have a call off. 
It is extremely common place in the sport for helpers to slip the sleeve to the dog .  If Schutzhund is what you are doing...it is your choice whether you want to do more civil training.  But if you want a civil dog I would do a civil dog sport if possible (like PSA).  They mesh together much better.
 
Schutzhund is a sport. It is a breed test. No more no less. It was never intended, as far as I know, to be personal protection training. Embrace it for what it is.  Few SchH dogs will protect for real without ADDITIONAL TRAINING...and of those few even less will stay on the grip after the initial bite even if the dogs reaction to the situation is correct.  I have seen dogs look like super, strong aggression very forward on a IPO or suit sleeve, but you put em on a hidden sleeve and even if they take the bite quick, they do NOT want to be there after a few seconds.

After I started doing building and area searches with my SchH dog....an unexpected adverse affect....human scent became more significant to her...even though I never did a track with someone hiding at the end...it affected her Schutzhund tracking even if it was ever so slight.  What happens with a SchH dog who finds human scent more significant than it should?  SchH tracks...if laid close together can distract the dog or worse.  Schutzhund tracking space is at a premium for most clubs...therefore they lay their tracks within several yards of eachother.  A SchH dog should hold the smell of crushed vegetation with the utmost significance!  So in trial, he does not lift his head, he does not cast left to right following or investigating human scent pools etc.   If you have a dog that is very clear and always track at the same place...probably might not even notice any difference.  But when you go to trial, at a strange place, with strange people...

Now this is the type of thing that can be bad for a schH dog if you "go to the woods".  But.... if thats fun for you and you want to do it with your dog...go ahead, have fun.  But do it knowing you may be creating some training challenges for yourself if you are working towads a SchH title.

Don't get me wrong, The dog above will run around with the SchH sleeve in her mouth if I want her to....she has enough clarity to know when we are boxing and when we are street fighting.  I have never re-engaged her with the initial bite being on an IPO sleeve.  So she has enough clarity to not re-engage immediately after an IPO sleeve grip.  but she would at the drop of a hat on command.  On an IPO sleeve with a strange helper, I must be careful.  She will not drop and re-engage but will stand facing the helper with it in her mouth...or drop it, stand on it as if to invite the helper to prey guard.  I give intstructions to the helper or call the dog to me when I see it. 

Like I said before...it is certainly possible for a large number of strong Schutzhund dogs to be cross trained for PPD.  But, especially if you are looking for high points...it is not advisable to cross train.  a single purpose dog is the master of his trade, there is less to confuse the dog with.  I pushed the limits of versatility with one dog.  It was my only sport dog at the time and I wanted to have fun.

If one only has the option of schH training in his/her area.  And this person wants to make his/her SchH dog civil. If YOUR TRAINER/HELPER is willing and on board...have fun.  I don't see an issue if it is kept to a minimum, but the dogs primary training should revolve around SchH.  If one NEEDS a PPD and rely's his/her life on this dog...I would suggest that the primary work be done for PPD and if your dog is clear enough to mess around with SchH do so but don't have high expectations on performance.


JMO

















 

Hmmmmm. Ok. I have seen schutzhund dogs that make that dog look like a punk. And high level ones too. Do you want examples? Sid vom haus gremm. I have seen videos of him in training with jorg. Garys old iwo vom grenzganger. My buddy had him at his kennel for awhile..