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by GSDguy08 on 22 July 2011 - 02:07
Thie video on the first page really doesn't improve my view on showline dogs. My question is..... If showline people claim there are a lot of great working "showline dogs", then why is it so hard to give a good list of all of them? Why can't they list a lot of great, sound, brave working dogs. A dog backing down like they did in that video ...... People say it comes down to lack of "training" in showlines......or is it lack of courage? I know of dogs with very little training who would not back down from that. I completely agree with what I read that Jeff posted on the first page as well. Aside from that, in many of the videos I've seen of showline dogs, helpers looked as if they watered it down to make the dog look better, many dogs seem to lack courage, and lacked intensity in bitework as well. I'm just not finding anything to help my view on showlines, and I actually would like to like them. The NASS video did have a nice dog about 3 minutes into it, but I didn't care to watch all of it. Like Red Sable said, I don't know many people who like GSDs either when it comes to what the showring has done to them. I've heard numerous people talk about how sad it is, what they're doing to the breed....and how they're ruining it. All in all, I just don't get it when showline people get angry when others talk about working ability in show lines......but with all of these people on the database and anywhere for that matter.....find it so hard to list show lines that can work. I don't get it.
RLHAR, you have some nice looking dogs. Especially that male, but I'm a sucker for dark sables.
RLHAR, you have some nice looking dogs. Especially that male, but I'm a sucker for dark sables.
by Ruger1 on 22 July 2011 - 04:07
Maybe show line people are just tired of the argument or is it that hard to give me a name and video of a good working show line..I do not mean this in a sarcastic way..I am really trying to be careful not to offend anyone...There are so many old threads on the database that it is hard to go looking for some of this information....: ) Hartis Bohemia is the only name I can recall...
It keeps coming back around to the "Standard"...I am going to have to research exactly what that standard is....With all the debating and division it appears that the standard is not so cut and dry...I will have to sleep on this a bit...
Thanks everyone for the input...
by Jeff Oehlsen on 22 July 2011 - 05:07
The standard is the same as it has always been, nothing has changed that I have ever heard of.
Show people have one thing that is a nightmare to deal with, and that is judges. Working people lose points because we did not do something correctly. It is clear in the rules most of the time. A crooked sit is going to make you lose a point. However, it does not detract from the quality of the dog. I am not going to look at a really fast powerful dog who bites like an alligator, and fights EVERYTHING that the helper/decoy does, and then say, well, he had a crooked sit.
Show people have to find a judge that likes the "type" of dog that they have. They have to travel, and then, judges change their minds, and they are back to square one. Now they have to breed to a dog that throws sickle hocks and roach backs to continue to play the game. It is always changing. Take away all the other BS, and you can see that they live in a world that is constantly changing, and absolutely does not care if a dog would ever protect it's family, or do a sport. They want nice calm little sheep that they can take into the ring and not have to worry about what the dog is thinking about the other dogs and all the people.
That is the basic mentality of a show person. They do not care what the dog was originally supposed to be, they are too busy trying to get the dog to be what will win in the ring.
They are working their asses off, and it is a very difficult endeavor.
Then, they hear us telling them that they are completely fucked in the head. LOL And, of course they are. HA HA
Show people have one thing that is a nightmare to deal with, and that is judges. Working people lose points because we did not do something correctly. It is clear in the rules most of the time. A crooked sit is going to make you lose a point. However, it does not detract from the quality of the dog. I am not going to look at a really fast powerful dog who bites like an alligator, and fights EVERYTHING that the helper/decoy does, and then say, well, he had a crooked sit.
Show people have to find a judge that likes the "type" of dog that they have. They have to travel, and then, judges change their minds, and they are back to square one. Now they have to breed to a dog that throws sickle hocks and roach backs to continue to play the game. It is always changing. Take away all the other BS, and you can see that they live in a world that is constantly changing, and absolutely does not care if a dog would ever protect it's family, or do a sport. They want nice calm little sheep that they can take into the ring and not have to worry about what the dog is thinking about the other dogs and all the people.
That is the basic mentality of a show person. They do not care what the dog was originally supposed to be, they are too busy trying to get the dog to be what will win in the ring.
They are working their asses off, and it is a very difficult endeavor.
Then, they hear us telling them that they are completely fucked in the head. LOL And, of course they are. HA HA
by Abby Normal on 22 July 2011 - 08:07
That video made me wince, really shocking. As this was the BSZS you would expect the best of the best to be competing. I also thought their construction quite dreadful, but I am not a fan of extreme angulation. I swear people are always protesting there are no roach backs in SL - it's just the way they're stacked ???? I've certainly seen video of the Sieger Show showing much better work than that, not out of this world, but not as bad as that, so I wonder if these dogs simply are the failures? Doesn't excuse that year on year the tests are being made easier and easier to compensate for the loss of ability.
These particular dogs looked uncomfortable (in the extreme) or even afraid about being asked to work and IMO they did not look comfortable in their bodies. I agree with Jeff, this construction just doesn't lend itself to the dog having ability to work. Often it's said that SL breed for 'pretty' rather than working ability. For me the problem is that I don't find them pretty either, and neither does your average working man on the street if all the conversations I've had are anything to go by.
I find references to these dogs being 'correct' quite ludicrous at times.
The fact is (I can only speak for UK), the majority of show people are not in the slightest bit interested in working ability. Don't want to breed for it, don't want to train for it. Don't want to talk about it.
I do believe that GSDs should have a natural instinct to protect and be courageous, and training should simply hone and develop this - it cannot 'create' it if it isnt there as the video proves.
RLHar (?) I will take the pretty coyote home please LOL.
Jeff, an interesting take on the problem that SL have. I never really thought about it like that.
These particular dogs looked uncomfortable (in the extreme) or even afraid about being asked to work and IMO they did not look comfortable in their bodies. I agree with Jeff, this construction just doesn't lend itself to the dog having ability to work. Often it's said that SL breed for 'pretty' rather than working ability. For me the problem is that I don't find them pretty either, and neither does your average working man on the street if all the conversations I've had are anything to go by.
I find references to these dogs being 'correct' quite ludicrous at times.
The fact is (I can only speak for UK), the majority of show people are not in the slightest bit interested in working ability. Don't want to breed for it, don't want to train for it. Don't want to talk about it.
I do believe that GSDs should have a natural instinct to protect and be courageous, and training should simply hone and develop this - it cannot 'create' it if it isnt there as the video proves.
RLHar (?) I will take the pretty coyote home please LOL.
Jeff, an interesting take on the problem that SL have. I never really thought about it like that.
by brynjulf on 22 July 2011 - 14:07
See what I mean folks. There will always be a line even on the basics such as temperment. Jeff stated that he is glad when a GSD in training goes for him. He feels this is correct. And many working line people do. Not dissing the mentality at all. Yup they work but do not transition well. I believe that a good tempermented GSD will adapt to a new handler over time ( obviously not the first day, that would be rediculas) Many working lines do not have this adaptabilty. Good or bad it is a fact. The average showline dog is extemely adaptable and when it comes to training or sadly rehoming, these dogs usually adjust. So from a breeders point of veiw I get it. MOST homes are pet homes. Not sure how many actual working homes there are out there. Yup there are roached backs in showlines tis a fact, I have two here at the moment. And that roach make them jump like a hot dam. The roach actually improves there movement and workability, looks ugly as sin and is totally incorrect but it sure makes them flexible. And yes showline folks are tired of defending the good dogs. Bottom line from someone who is totally impartial. Both dogs breeds (lol) have good and bad points. ( of course none of this conversation includes American showlines which in my opinion are not even shepherds any more.) We won't even board them any longer due to the nuerotic behaviors... sad but true.
by VomMarischal on 22 July 2011 - 15:07
Show lines people often say they want to produce puppies for the average pet owner. Well it's my opinion that the dogs in your litter that fail to work should be the pet dogs. I really do not see the point in producing herds of driveless dogs ON PURPOSE [edit to add] but I'm sure glad there are homes available for the...ones who won't work.
by VonIsengard on 22 July 2011 - 15:07
Brynjulf, I'm glad you want to defend showlines, but a roach does NOT improve movement or make them more flexible. I disagree about adaptability as well. Yes, there are some overreactive working dogs out there, but there are many who are no such thing, and one reason why some showlines show poor work is because they DO adapt more slowly, they do NOT flourish when being sold and resold right and left and shipped off constantly to this trainer or that handler. Take a look at our World Universal Sieger or Ravi Iyer's dog. Coincidence these dogs are owner handled and trained? Doubt it. (btw Jeff- you missed my question a page or two back)
by Sunsilver on 22 July 2011 - 16:07
Brynjulf, I'm glad you want to defend showlines, but a roach does NOT improve movement or make them more flexible.
I totally agree with that. I was into horse jumping for many years in my younger days, and learned about the mechanics of jumping. An animal's spine needs to be flexible in order for it to be able to jump. Amongst the mammals, cats are among the best jumpers there are, and look at how flexible THEIR spines are!
I would love to see someone do a scientific study on the mechanics of gait in dogs. With my horse training, and having studied anatomy at university, I have a few thoughts on how structure relates to gait, and I think the showline people are headed TOTALLY in the wrong direction. For one thing, if you shift the centre of gravity by shortening the rear legs, or sloping the back, you are going to put more weight and stress on the rear legs. More stress equals more wear and tear on the joints, and more injuries.
I totally agree with that. I was into horse jumping for many years in my younger days, and learned about the mechanics of jumping. An animal's spine needs to be flexible in order for it to be able to jump. Amongst the mammals, cats are among the best jumpers there are, and look at how flexible THEIR spines are!
I would love to see someone do a scientific study on the mechanics of gait in dogs. With my horse training, and having studied anatomy at university, I have a few thoughts on how structure relates to gait, and I think the showline people are headed TOTALLY in the wrong direction. For one thing, if you shift the centre of gravity by shortening the rear legs, or sloping the back, you are going to put more weight and stress on the rear legs. More stress equals more wear and tear on the joints, and more injuries.
by Ruger1 on 22 July 2011 - 16:07
Abby Normal...said, " I've certainly seen video of the Sieger Show showing much better work than that, not out of this world, but not as bad as that, so I wonder if these dogs simply are the failures? "....
....Good point I do not think it is fair to post below average performances...IMO a couple of these dogs appeared to be afraid of the handler...JMO...
Also, I think it would be beneficial to debate using examples of only the Best Show Line breeders/dogs and the Best Working Line breeders/dogs....There will always be garbage and the worse examples of any product for lack of a better word....Lets not waste time using the horrible examples on either side ....Lets try and focus and what each side brings to the table as their best representation....Then we can debate those dogs....
Names Please ....
Deanna...: )
by Red Sable on 22 July 2011 - 17:07
I just googled Show line dogs that can work, and Ravi (Lonewolf) said, (and others agreed) that his dog can work. Maybe he'd show us a video?
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=425148
4pack said this male could, in this thread;
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/bulletins.read?mnr=215801&pagen=2
maybe he is no longer with us though?
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=455666
Anyway, quite a few dogs mentioned, so watcha think guys?
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=425148
4pack said this male could, in this thread;
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/bulletins.read?mnr=215801&pagen=2
maybe he is no longer with us though?
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=455666
Anyway, quite a few dogs mentioned, so watcha think guys?
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