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by GSDNewbie on 23 April 2011 - 23:04
Have you ever sat down and figured up how much more is spent finishing a German showline over a working line?
Most working lines if they do at all go to one confirmation show just to get breed surveyed. Showlines have to go through the whole schutzhund gambit or HGH, not just one extra show to get their breed survey. Showlines are doing both sides of the coin multiple times. Many working line also do not do elbows and some do not do hips. It all boils down to the dog quality and breeder and if someone is willing to pay it.
by EWagner on 24 April 2011 - 00:04
Steve,
Maybe a showier working line girl?
I think the people wants what the people wants, and that will determine the price an item can be "valued" at. it is probably just as well as many hard core working lines would just be confused in a household environment where their drives were stifled in the name of not trouncing the children. Many would not know what they were getting into with a heavy WL.
Maybe a showier working line girl?
I think the people wants what the people wants, and that will determine the price an item can be "valued" at. it is probably just as well as many hard core working lines would just be confused in a household environment where their drives were stifled in the name of not trouncing the children. Many would not know what they were getting into with a heavy WL.
by Tihannah on 24 April 2011 - 00:04
Maybe if you re-read my post, you will see that a WL sable was at the top of my list. I chose a blk/tan because his breeding and background fit my lifestyle among other things. I NEVER stated that I DIDN'T chose a WL because they couldn't. There were just many factors that lay into my choice. I know several people who own WL GSD's as family pets, I just didn't find what I was looking for. Thanks.
LOL. WTF? Is this what the the public think. God help us.
Is there something you didn't understand in my post? Or are you ASSuming as well??
LOL. WTF? Is this what the the public think. God help us.
Is there something you didn't understand in my post? Or are you ASSuming as well??
by steve1 on 24 April 2011 - 05:04
Alphapup
What you mean to say is that you taught the dog the Sch1 program at 6 months of age, It could not have officially passed it at 6 months unless you have different rules in the States to Europe and they sure be different by a huge amount
However it means nothing really, I just saw a video of a 10 week old Puppy running from its handler on command and barking in the blind without touching the helper and then taking the rag when given the chance and bringing it back to the handler.
Regards the Pic i put in for a bit of fun, She is as a couple have said an out and out WL dog, and she will be a very good one too, meaning the ScH sport,
It just happened that she got SG in the show needed for her to be Korclassed a bit later on, after only 3 try's around the show ring in practise prior to the show.
A bit of luck involved i think but a very capable girl to take her round for us.
Regards the crossing of the SL to to a WL, i see no point at all, We WL need only a G rating for the show part, that is not really hard with a well bred dog and a little practice,
We do not need a dog to look like a SL . However genetics changed so much by man or i should say interfered with so much by man, has resulted to knocking out much of the fire in the SL which is a great pity. So there fore i see no reason to cross the two lines certainly not for the benefit of the WL.
The SL may be improved on the working front but would the loss in other areas be worth it
Steve
What you mean to say is that you taught the dog the Sch1 program at 6 months of age, It could not have officially passed it at 6 months unless you have different rules in the States to Europe and they sure be different by a huge amount
However it means nothing really, I just saw a video of a 10 week old Puppy running from its handler on command and barking in the blind without touching the helper and then taking the rag when given the chance and bringing it back to the handler.
Regards the Pic i put in for a bit of fun, She is as a couple have said an out and out WL dog, and she will be a very good one too, meaning the ScH sport,
It just happened that she got SG in the show needed for her to be Korclassed a bit later on, after only 3 try's around the show ring in practise prior to the show.
A bit of luck involved i think but a very capable girl to take her round for us.
Regards the crossing of the SL to to a WL, i see no point at all, We WL need only a G rating for the show part, that is not really hard with a well bred dog and a little practice,
We do not need a dog to look like a SL . However genetics changed so much by man or i should say interfered with so much by man, has resulted to knocking out much of the fire in the SL which is a great pity. So there fore i see no reason to cross the two lines certainly not for the benefit of the WL.
The SL may be improved on the working front but would the loss in other areas be worth it
Steve
by sueincc on 24 April 2011 - 13:04
The requirements for breed survey don't change according to the lines, so there is no difference there.
Regarding hips and elbows, amongst those who don't breed survey, most everyone with working line dogs that trial their dogs do hips and elbows because we need healthy dogs that will hold up, having a sound dog becomes even more important when you trial dogs.
How many SV shows do you think a show line dog enters a year? How many trials do you think a working line dog enters a year? Can't speak to how many shows people enter but I can tell you people with working line dogs trial multiple times every year.
As far as paying for quality, that's pretty much in the eye of the beholder, as far as I'm concerned a good working line dog is far superior to any show line dog, but they cost less, so obviously "quality" has nothing to do with the fact that show line dogs are more expensive either.
It seems to me, most show line folks don't show, train or title their own dogs. They pay to have their dogs trained, they pay to have their dogs titled, they pay to have their dogs shown. I don't know if it's because they can't be bothered, they prefer sitting on the sidelines, it's a status issue, or you can't get a decent placement in the show ring without a name handler, or maybe it's just not where their interests lie.
The opposite is true in the working line community. Most working line aficionados do all that stuff themselves with their own dogs. That's what we like to do. We can't imagine paying anyone else to do all the training, titling and campaigning, hell that's what we got into it to do! Just doesn't mean quite as much if we have to say we own a great dog but didn't have diddly to do with getting him there. So for us, the pride, joy and status comes from doing more ourselves, rather than paying so many middle men.
Maybe that's a big part of the cost difference.
Regarding hips and elbows, amongst those who don't breed survey, most everyone with working line dogs that trial their dogs do hips and elbows because we need healthy dogs that will hold up, having a sound dog becomes even more important when you trial dogs.
How many SV shows do you think a show line dog enters a year? How many trials do you think a working line dog enters a year? Can't speak to how many shows people enter but I can tell you people with working line dogs trial multiple times every year.
As far as paying for quality, that's pretty much in the eye of the beholder, as far as I'm concerned a good working line dog is far superior to any show line dog, but they cost less, so obviously "quality" has nothing to do with the fact that show line dogs are more expensive either.
It seems to me, most show line folks don't show, train or title their own dogs. They pay to have their dogs trained, they pay to have their dogs titled, they pay to have their dogs shown. I don't know if it's because they can't be bothered, they prefer sitting on the sidelines, it's a status issue, or you can't get a decent placement in the show ring without a name handler, or maybe it's just not where their interests lie.
The opposite is true in the working line community. Most working line aficionados do all that stuff themselves with their own dogs. That's what we like to do. We can't imagine paying anyone else to do all the training, titling and campaigning, hell that's what we got into it to do! Just doesn't mean quite as much if we have to say we own a great dog but didn't have diddly to do with getting him there. So for us, the pride, joy and status comes from doing more ourselves, rather than paying so many middle men.
Maybe that's a big part of the cost difference.
by beetree on 24 April 2011 - 14:04
I disagree Sue, with the status comment as being the driving factor of the price difference, I think the WL's and SL's are different markets. And they create their own values within those markets. Sub-markets, I guess I would say, like a microclimate or something.
by sueincc on 24 April 2011 - 14:04
Hi Bee I changed my post to explain the "status" comment. You still might disagree, no problem.
One thing though, I am so happy that working lines cost less, I don't want to analyze this too much, sort of like not looking the gift horse in the mouth !!!
One thing though, I am so happy that working lines cost less, I don't want to analyze this too much, sort of like not looking the gift horse in the mouth !!!
by beetree on 24 April 2011 - 14:04
LOL Just want to put it out there, ya' know.
by steve1 on 24 April 2011 - 14:04
GSDNewbie
Watching the SL running round the ring and the way some guys handle the dogs is a treat to watch them, I in fact got a young Lady to help us with Gina. My brother is Gina's handler normally i took over for a few months whist his New knee heals up a bit, but he is her handler and he was the one inside the Ring going from one corner to the other shouting at her to motivate her in the few practice runs she had and also on the day of the show. There is a fair bit if work in it if you are a true SL fanatic.
However after the show had ended i went to the Judge and said could i bring Gina to him for him to check her teeth and if all was well write it down in her score book, the front of the book. Her pedigree was in the car. So he did do me this favour,
Why i got her teeth officially rated was for one reason only . If she has the misfortune to break a tooth then she can still go forwards to be Korclassed when she gets her ScH1,
If she did break a tooth and did not have this entry by the Judge in her work book then she would never be able to be Korclassed.
Now i did ask this German Judge what was his opinion , Is there more work involved with SL or WL. his reply was the WL requires more effort and time to get really top scores, and overall the WL takes more time than than the SL, right or wrong that was his verdict.
As for the prices of the individual lines WL or SL, base costs i only know what i have paid for my dogs, However one thing is certain if you buy a Puppy then by the time you have done everything correct by the book Joints Etc Vaccs, Changing over from Germany to your country etc, then the purchase price will be doubled and more
Steve1
Watching the SL running round the ring and the way some guys handle the dogs is a treat to watch them, I in fact got a young Lady to help us with Gina. My brother is Gina's handler normally i took over for a few months whist his New knee heals up a bit, but he is her handler and he was the one inside the Ring going from one corner to the other shouting at her to motivate her in the few practice runs she had and also on the day of the show. There is a fair bit if work in it if you are a true SL fanatic.
However after the show had ended i went to the Judge and said could i bring Gina to him for him to check her teeth and if all was well write it down in her score book, the front of the book. Her pedigree was in the car. So he did do me this favour,
Why i got her teeth officially rated was for one reason only . If she has the misfortune to break a tooth then she can still go forwards to be Korclassed when she gets her ScH1,
If she did break a tooth and did not have this entry by the Judge in her work book then she would never be able to be Korclassed.
Now i did ask this German Judge what was his opinion , Is there more work involved with SL or WL. his reply was the WL requires more effort and time to get really top scores, and overall the WL takes more time than than the SL, right or wrong that was his verdict.
As for the prices of the individual lines WL or SL, base costs i only know what i have paid for my dogs, However one thing is certain if you buy a Puppy then by the time you have done everything correct by the book Joints Etc Vaccs, Changing over from Germany to your country etc, then the purchase price will be doubled and more
Steve1
by GSDNewbie on 24 April 2011 - 14:04
I am not a breeder and I do not sell. I have owned working line dogs and showline. The perspective I gave was completely unbiased and feel free to accept it or not. I do NOT make money off dogs to have a misguided angle to reply to this from.
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