The ideal GSD before the breed was bifurcated into WL and SL - Page 7

This diversion in structural type has nothing to do with working ability or health.

have never seen it put better.

Rik

Jeff:
I do not think that the higher levels of Sch are dogs that are extreme;
 First I am talking about sport in general and not SchH per se. I am not going to get into which  sport is more extreme then other sport. What I am talking about are extreme GSD's traits.

Got an example of this extreme drive for me ?
Are you kidding me? You must be. 
Extreme is any drive which is detrimental to the every day life of a dog even so it  enables him and is necessary for placing high in a sport. GSD is not here for your satisfaction of top level  competing! 
 GSD is a working dog which needs to perform in many every day tasks.  SchH was developed as a test of breed worthiness and it was originally based on Pass don't Pass score. It was not developed as a self serving sport with points into which it degenerated later.

"However, the numb to stimulus thing, you are basing that on ??"
The dog who is bred ( and I am not saying trained) to ignore noises is a numb scull.

I have no need of territoriality. You can keep that one. We are in the US.
This is really weird answer. So you want to breed GS dog to allow anyone to  enter your house and steal what ever he wants....because you live in USA? What the heck are you saying?
 Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

 I have been around a bunch of Sch dogs that are not all fired up like you are saying. I was looking for an example of the "extreme" drive you are seeing in Sch. I have a FR3 dog, and he does not have all these super extreme traits. He is a little pesky, but that is all. He calms down just fine. I have another dog that I am training for Mondio, and he is not an idiot at the house.  The FR3 dog trialed in the selectiffs, so he was no slouch. Esko is looking like he will be able to do some pretty nice work. I am not sure at all about these extreme traits. THe biggest pain in the butt is my female GSD, and she just wants to play all the time. She is not out there trying to bite anyone, just likes to run around with her toys and play tug.

There seems to be some misunderstanding about "sport" dogs and their drives. Some people can barely handle a cat, but get it in their head that they need a dog. I do not get these people. I have had them in traning class many times. They bring me out, and the dog is just being a normal 1 year old (whatever) dog, and they talk about all the energy the dog has. THe dog went out and ran for a couple minutes and layed down. I think this must be what some of the other people that post are like. Especially with all this talk about "extreme" drives, and how awful they are.



Yes, I am saying that I am ok with having a dog that will let someone steal my stuff. I have had dogs that had this territorial thing in the extreme, and I do not need my stuff that badly. I had dogs that were not only capable, but willing to hurt someone very badly and I just do not want that ever again. For every time that I have someone trying to steal my stuff 0 I have friends that come over to hang out  3000. 

I will just replace my stuff thank you. I do not have some onslaught of criminals coming at me. I do have friends coming over.

 I'm with Hans.

I have no friends and I like my stuff. 

 I heard that your dog let some guys on property with wagging tail and happy face. LOL And stop fucking about and get some friends. People are not all bad.

 Extreme territorial behavior is just as annoying as ANY extreme behavior. If I tell my dog it's ok, then it's ok, and he/she had better mind their own business and accept the guests. They all will do this. I don't have any overly aggressive or sharp dogs. My Pit Bulls are a bit friendlier than I'd like (what an understatement) but my GSDs are just about right, IMHO. They are not running up to people and licking their faces, but they are somewhere between aloof and neutral and friendly. If they don't accept someone I tell them to accept, they get corrected. But I definitely want a warning that something's going on outside. Every time I've ignored it,  I shouldn't have in hindsight. Now, if I am not home, I do not expect them to allow anyone in the house, and they have surprised a few people who thought it would be ok because the dogs "know" them. 

My oldest male is a bit intimidating to male guests (so they tell me) in that he stays very quietly by my side or will walk back and forth between me and the guy, as if he's setting a safe distance or something. I didn't think anything of it until the guys mentioned that they were a little intimidated by it.  As soon as he decides they are harmless, he goes off to entertain himself. He does not invite affection, but he's not going to rip someone's face off for no good reason. But if you give him a good reason, he doesn't care if he knows you or not. I admit he has been the last straw for a few unworthy boyfriends. They acted like nervous pansies and he had a field day with it. Naturally, my twisted mind made me think this was hilarious, so that didn't really help the situation. 

My favorite was when I was in the shower and my bf of about a year and half started banging on the bathroom door, yelling at me to "call my dog off." I yelled that it didn't sound like he was doing anything and to stop being such a  um, sissy (not the word I used). He said he was following him all over the house maintaining eye contact and sometimes walking backwards in front of him. LMAO. Nervous and skittish types don't last that long w/me usually. 

Will you be my friend, Jeffy? 

 Jenni78,

I like your oldest male, this is how a correct mature GSD should behave, sometimes I feel ashamed when my dogs run to a first time visitor licking and playing like fools and looking for other dogs smell on him or her, it is really embarrassing. I do correct them on the spot and they stop and go away, but later repeat the same thing with another new visitor, seems will never get over it. They do protect at night when a stranger approaches from outside, but I don't know what they would do if he or she opens the gate and steps in, maybe they would offer kissings.... maybe not.

Ibrahim

 I think a lot of suspicion and aloofness has been lost in the breed in general, as people often equate suspicion with weak nerves, which I disagree with. As Jeff has stated, many people find suspicion and territorial aggression undesireable and therefore select against it. The result is sometimes GSDs who behave like Golden Retrievers in terms of affection. Doesn't mean they won't bite, but (for my GSDs) I prefer an aloof dog w/strangers, one I can take out in public but who will ignore non-threatening people yet behave aggressively toward threats. JMO. 

 Quote:  As Jeff has stated, many people find suspicion and territorial aggression undesireable and therefore select against it. The result is sometimes GSDs who behave like Golden Retrievers in terms of affection. Doesn't mean they won't bite, but (for my GSDs) I prefer an aloof dog w/strangers, one I can take out in public but who will ignore non-threatening people yet behave aggressively toward threats. JMO.

One of my favorite all time things to see in a dog is a dog that is completely happy in his surroundings. I like a dog that loves to be petted and is a whore about it. I have had, and still have dogs that will bite the bejesus out of you right after you have been petting them if they are told to bite you.

My problem with suspicion is that too often "nervebag" is a better description. People twist terminology to fit the dog, without ever just being realistic and saying that the dog is what it is. There are plenty of dogs that fit correctly into the terminology, but I do not like suspicious. I like what I like. That is part of the problem across the board. 

I feel it does do some harm to twist terminology like people do. Am I twisting terminology ? Maybe. Maybe it is just how I raise dogs. They do not get to decide who they like or do not like. I am fine with a dog that has better things to do than pay attention to people as well, however, suspicion, after having worked a lot of dogs over my lifetime has meant "dog that will run" way more often than not.

 Suspicion is not fear; suspicion is simply not falling in love with strangers at first sight...reserved and watchful may be better terms. Like being suspicious of someone until you trust them...you're not afraid of them, you're simply reserving final approval until you build some trust. ;-) Not the same as fear...just awareness that everyone is not your bff.