German Shepherd Bloodlines - Page 6

I think different - only because people are "used to" something doesn´t say it´s true.

" Yes,... as you describe it = breeding not using the benefit of knowledgeable breeders in concept of male blood lines will eventually generate goulash "

I never said this, did I ?!? I believe in the concept of male and FEMALE blood lines. and I believe in first hand knowledge, but this first hand knowledge ends at the point the breeder became involved into the breed.

In case you believe in male blood lines only, you´ll never know about the other half of the "goulash" ( I like this word, over here we say "Gulasch" ).

Just for the record, I want the Steak...

Just read your post, Ibrahim.

You won´t be able to find people to tell you the "truth" ( whatever the truth of our personal definition of temperament might be ) about dogs born in the 10´s, 20´s, 30´, 40´s, maybe even the 50s of the last century any more.

To be objective, you need to be an adult, and you need to know about dogs ( otherwise you can´t compare ), that said, you need to be 20+ years old, and you need a history of training, handling, not necessarily breeding dogs. Most people need to be 25 + years old to get to this point, a lot of German Shepherd fanciers started way later.

So to be able to talk seriously about a dog born in 1930 you have to be born in 1910 or earlier ( Hektor was born in 1900/1, so your birthday should have been in 1880 or earlier ).

Let´s stay in 1930 - you were born in 1910, happy Birthday, by now you are at least 106 years old, you survived 2 world wars, and you stayed interested in German Shepherd dogs your whole life...

Sorry, that was sarcastic, my grandpa was able to think back dogs till 1935+ ( ? ), he was born around 1900, but even his memories were subjective at best. In my area there have been a lot of high rated dogs out of the sixties ( including Cäsar Malmannsheide ), I asked a lot of oldtimers a lot of questions - and I got a lot of different answers - people are subjective about dogs, you either are able to get personal hold on the dogs in question or you never will know.

I wrote this paragraph in my previous post

if we have credible members on this board who knew Marko, Mutz, Quanto and Canto who were dogs of the sixties, more than 50 years ago, then in the sixties there were individuals/breeders/judges who knew dogs from the 1910/1920/1930.

Looks like it was not properly worded, I will rephrase it

if we today in 2016 have credible members on this board who knew Marko, Mutz, Quanto and Canto who were dogs of the sixties, more than 50 years ago. Likewise in the sixties there would have been similar people who knew dogs from 50 years back, means dogs from the 1910. Susie, you don't need to reply.

Listen Susie, I am not as much educated or knowledgeable as some of you here but my simple brain tells me this:

If between 1900-1930 I was a breeder, a dedicated one, before I die I would pass my knowledge to my son or daughter or a close relative or friend. Part of this knowledge would be present kennel dogs, their ancestors and known pillars of the breed and bloodlines.
Then comes my son's time say from 1930-1960, he will do the same. Then our family kennel head in 2016 would have knowledge and notes from 1900.

Jiri of Jinopo will not leave life before he passes all his knowledge of breeding to Petr, his son, or a relative or a friend.

My point is, knowledge is sort of heritage, it does not simply vanish  between a day and night.

Susie, yes fat finger syndrome >>> ludicious, too funny.. sorry about that. I follow some german forums and my head hurts constantly trying to understand and follow from the translation. They all suck bing google et al. Thanks for the clarification. I might still be lost, but the way it was worded it seemed like your post inferred that line breeding for specific trait was trying to make a Hektor to run in the backyard. ;)~ Or that traits have some expiration date.

Gustav, disregard if you like. My question was based on my perception that there was is argument on the possibility of producing trait from a specified line over time.

Susie

Why do I need to have personally seen a dog to understand what the dog has produced throughout his breeding career? At the end of the day a dog with 20 Titles that has never been able to throw itself is of little consequence to any breeding program. The proof and the value for me is in progeny not the ribbon at hand. So many very good dogs never ever left us with much of anything fault in pairing and most importantly fault to replicate.

@ Susie.
But Susie yes people knew those dogs. They were famous dogs. What are you talking about? There were thousands of dog enthusiasts looking at it and they arrived to consensus. And that is what matter here the consensus.
I know with quite a certainty that if I breed dogs in 2.nd line I will most liekly get : usually dark sable, hard, in PP high anger level, great trackers, dominant thus lesser obedience.
or 3.rd line: very versatile dogs, high endurance and drive, our most popular line (with Jiri), smaller dogs .
That fits like a glove. However you need to respect the rules of breed in male lines in order to get this. If I would be purist and had all dogs on the ped in specific line then such pedigree would be quite homogeneous.
How do you justify that? I and hundreds of breeders are making this up?

1. "Why do I need to have personally seen a dog to understand what the dog has produced throughout his breeding career?"
2. "The proof and the value for me is in progeny not the ribbon at hand."

1. We are not talking about sires or grandsires here, we are talking about 10+ generations - the further back the ancestor, the smaller its influence, the more breeders involved, the more personal preferences. For me any reasonable conclusion ends within the 4./5. generation, otherwise there are way too many unknown variables involved.

2. That´s totally true, but after 3 or more generations back to point 1. Nobody is able to decide if a special trait is the genetic heritage of the great great great grandsire or if it might have been the heritage of a unknown great great great granddam on the mother´s side...

Ibrahim, this sounds good " My point is, knowledge is sort of heritage, it does not simply vanish between a day and night.", but society changes, goals change, and consequently the traits we are looking for in dogs changed too over the decades.

Not for nothing, but with all this talk of following the male lines, it bears noting that the Kirschental lines are based on the female Blanka von Mummelsee, not any particular male.

In the US, among the working line GSDs, I submit that one of the most consistent bloodlines that's been established is those of Von Sontausen--which all go back to a single foundation bitch, Metzundyali's Sonja, through her homebred daughter Cora von Sontausen.

Ibrahim did you not buy Jinopo dogs?? - how did that go. did the dogs have the traits of the sire 100 years ago like hand in glove???

 

why would anybody bother testing or titling their breeding stock - just shut your eyes and reach in a pen full of puppies who's great, great, great, great, great, great, great great, great.......grandsire was line X and you will have puppies that will be line X - like hand in glove.

 

Fero is just as much if not more a new line as any of the original sires in the 5 line system.

 

it takes an incredible amount of power to ignore everything between now and 100 years ago to maintain this 5 line system. as for hundreds of breeders that breed that way - i am skeptical. most of the high performing breeders of today eg Staatchmacht do not speak of it or consider it is my guess. incidentally Quardes is as legitimate a new line as any of the 5 lines of yore.

 

 

Back to ludicious...... ha vk4gsd Reread his post: Gustav:  "One of the things I usually include in my reply is that the individual selection of pup is critical to their receiving what they want based on genetics" You will need your eyes open....