WL + SL = BL??? - Page 6

"Sir, if a breeder breeds his/her show bitch to a very good wl male of very good structure and a sound work ability background, and breeder's aim is to eastablish a new better "show line" then the breeder should be ready to give the not so good puppies free or at a low price to pet or sport homes with a condition not to breed. If, say, in three litters breeder can keep home one very good female then that is in my opinion is a step in the right direction, then breeds this female to show male and keeps the best female, then again crosses with a wl male and repeats the process till he/she has several bitches that can work and are very good in structure, uniform in type and temperament then that is a new show line of strong temperament with several bitches to continue with. Several males can be developed in same process too but from different blood. If we only think on one generation basis we get nowhere, it's a long process but of valuable goal."

Ibrahim,

 IMO this is why I think this type of breeding program is flawed and destined to fail. The selection process for future breeding stock is still based on appearance with drive and temperament being a secondary goal. It's possible that the ideal dog from such a cross could be produced, but in most cases a breeder will be settling for the best dog in the litter that will still allow them to be competitive in the show ring.

 As you stated small improvements over multiple generations. I would ask are these really measures to improve the breed or are these band-aid solutions to keep a sinking ship a float? The SV has painted it's own version of the GSD into a tight little box and the dogs adhering to this standard have suffered the consequences. The past 40 odd years is proof that the SV has failed the breed, is there any reason to think the next 40 years will be any different? You want to improve the breed? I would think long and hard if the standard to which SL's are judged is really a system worth upholding.
ddddddddddssf Sir, if a breeder breeds his/her show bitch to a very good wl male of very good structure and a sound work ability background, and breeder's aim is to eastablish a new better "show line" then the breeder should be ready to give the not so good puppies free or at a low price to pet or sport homes with a condition not to breed. If, say, in three litters breeder can keep home one very good female then that is in my opinion is a step in the right direction, then breeds this female to show male and keeps the best female, then again crosses with a wl male and repeats the process till he/she has several bitches that can work and are very good in structure, uniform in type and temperament then that is a new show line of strong temperament with several bitches to continue with. Several males can be developed in same process too but from different blood. If we only think on one generation basis we get nowhere, it's a long process but of valuable goal.
 Ibrahium 

The problem with crossing different lines is that the lines have become so different it's almost like breeding to another breed. And many breeders would never in a million years do such an outrcross, because they believe they are getting 'shit on their gold'.
 

 Sunsilver's comments reminds me of this one, quoting an acquaintance on his assesment of a couple Dutchie+GSD crosses he performed... "But I doubt if i do that cross anymore here, I got one or two very good dogs from it, but way too many average or below average dogs for our standard. Just wasn't consistant enough." 

Mike D,  I didn't say your dog was ugly!  He is a handsome beast!  I can appreciate a beautiful animal.  And just as another poster said...if I find it ugly at first but see intelligence, focus, athleticism and great temperment....I can get over it quickly.  Which brings me to another rookie question and kind of to Darylehret's last point on the outcross.  If a saddle back Sch III kkl1 with ZW in mid to low 70s was bred with same female (or possibly SCHII) WL I find it hard to believe that the puppies would be garbage (again...assuming that both are known proven lines with real titles great hips elbows etc).  Now I know that maybe I would not get desired saddleback or maybe I would (don't know at this point) but I have to believe there would be at the very least, some outstanding pets with medium drive (at least) that would be scooped up by the right people.  I would also assume a couple (or more) great working prospects. And maybe, just maybe....a great saddleback working prospect (or two...or three)!  If however, it was producing way too many below average puppies...then that would be a problem.  It would seem however, less risky than hard linebreeding or inbreeding.
For the record this is my guys grandsire: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=432370
But...
This is his great-grandsire :)http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=6186

No wonder I am confused! 

 

nypiper, you find it hard to believe because you are still at the point that you believe a Sch. title always means something. I was there once also. The sad truth is that it might be a valid title and it also could be just a piece of paper on a dog that doesn't know even the basic commands.

Do a search and watch some of the protection work from the Siegers. And I'm not trying to start another war here and I do have s/l.

Think about what would be the motive behind someone taking their s/l female to a w/l male. In most instances it's probably going to be that the female is lacking in character. I'm sure everyone has their own reasons (or excuses) but let's be real here. The sucessful goal oriented breeder knows what it takes to be sucessful, whether the goal is work, sport or show. Most are going to produce a lot of pups that fall short of that goal without intentionaly setting out to supply the pet market.

anyway jmo,
Rik

Rik,
I hear what you are saying and have read the threads on bogus SCH titles which is why I included the phrase "real titles".  Of course the point of bringing a SL female to a wl male would be to enhance character...or perhaps preserve it...
I was just trying to simply ask how you could go wrong with that type of breeding.  Again, assuming the breeder knows the lines and all titles to be true?   I am not a breeder nor do I play one on TV, so that is why I am asking.  I know there is always the unknown with all breedings...and have heard of litters (just heard...no proof) with HD problems when both parents lines were all normal and above.  As I am not a breeder and not familiar with Wl, do most good WL litters have more above avg puppies (working potential) than average puppies?
Also, on the subject of titles...since many feel the sch titles have been compromised...does that then automaticaly imply the Körklasse  titles are also compromised?

I put a ferrari engine in my pinto, last year. It didn't work. I got a lot of tickets and women weren't impressed. I would have been better off buying a nice sports car with a pinto engine. Ever notice it is mainly the Sl person wanting to cross? Because they know they need to improve? If I was a breeder, I wouldn't sell to someone wrapped up in color, etc.

The breeder with the Dutchie+GSD cross was undoubtedly not using below average dogs, and utulizing two above average GSD's is not necessarily going to produce uniform results, either.  This emphasizes the importance of breeding for genotype, if any sort of uniform results are your part of your goal.  In the show/working breeding that I partook, there was some average to above uniformity in some aspects because of like Type between the two producers, combined with a fixed genotype of my linebred stud (i.e., prey), but there was also some very important aspects that were absent in some resulting pups (i.e., aggression).  When I have taken the same stud to a closer related female with good prey AND aggression, those aspects have been more consistent AND pronounced.

Gustav wrote:
"Think about this.....Suppose you had two glasses of 20 marbles. The one glasse had 18 black and 2 white, the other had 10 white and 10 black. Then you randomly let 10 from each jar roll onto the floor to start a new jar. Do you know how difficult it would be to get a "balanced" jar??? This is similar to the genetics of the two lines and makes the "fantasy mix together have very poor chances of acheiving this middle you want. The savy breeders understand this and depending on their preference won't take the chance of mixing the jars for either balance or beauty."



How simple an example, but how deep in truth.

One of the biggest problems with the SL x WL cross is,
neither 'camp' want's the progeny.
You tend to get faded color/pigment, barely 'G' structure,
and/or dogs that cannot do the work.
Basically, 'mud'.

Yes, there are some brilliant specimens out there that
are the result of SLxWL, but they are few and far between.
There is no real ability to continuously reproduce work ethic
in this type of cross from the resulting progeny.

You may be able to find some outstanding examples
of SL with great work ethic, but then the $20 million
dollar question, can they actually REPRODUCE that in
their progeny. More than likely they cannot. The SL has
a very closely linebred gene pool to draw from, so even
if you find that 'one', chances are, he/she was the only
one in the litter and cannot reproduce his/her work
ethic. I seem to remember a couple of really NICE
Asko Lutter sons that were SL crosses, one or both
were LGA dogs, but again, they got no breedings.


This debate has gone on forever, I think I remember it
first started about 20+ years ago, pre 'internet' days
Back then, people couldn't discuss it from behind a
keyboard, they discussed it out on the sidelines of the
training field, at regionals, nationals etc. It's pretty hard
to believe, and even harder to digest how far the breed
has come/sunk in 20+ years time.

Did you not like the look of any Falk von den Wölfen offspring posted? Most were beautiful functional examples of the breed that can work.

2010 NASS Bite Work Videos ; - Part 1 www.youtube.com/watch  &  Part 2 www.youtube.com/watch

Here are parts 3 and 4 of the Males doing Bite Work - Part 3 www.youtube.com/watch   Part 4 www.youtube.com/watch    

The bite work for the females from the 2010 North American Sieger Show - www.youtube.com/watch Part 1 & www.youtube.com/watch Part 2

Link to post - http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/forum.read?mnr=67978

Compare the best SL's courage test to the WUSV WL courage test, that are not water down:
2007 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql_9s8KArXM
2008 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFi1NeFUVZc 
2009 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BckQtq34rNo 
 
  

 


 



 

CP,
That Falk is a beautiful dog.   Most of the offspring you posted were blanket backs or bi-color....and very nice looking!  The one that caught my eye was: V Chuck vom Dorneburger Bach for obvious reasons !!!!!!

 f