color genetics - Page 6

if it's unfair to say that this blue breed is fine why is it okay to say this blue breed isn't? again I was mearly trying to point out that blue in itself isn't the issue.

all the issues you listed with  the exception of the livers noseburn  were not dilution gene related. They were Lack of melanin related   and diluted coats have all of their melanin.  (i didn't include CDA because it's avoidable)

And for the record i'm not defending anything. I just honestly haven't found any logical reason for the knee jerk hatred of a coat color. You yourself just called them pitiful excuses of a GSD why? They are just like the other Gsd's in every way except for coat color.

My standpoint on this issue carries less weight than a tissue paper thimble, but it's my opinion that if there isn't health / or functional issue there shouldn't be any negativity towards them.  If there is indeed a health or functional issue then by all means yes there shouldnt be any blues/livers

But everything thus far that has been brought up to me as a POSSIBLE health issue has been something that is prevalent in Albinism or bad breeding NOT dilution

It's like seeing  someone  with red cheeks.  You find out that they have red cheeks because they have been slapped by some bully, because this person is picked on by a bully they have all sorts of social and self esteem issues.   You see another person with red cheeks and everyone thinks they too have social and self esteem issues  but in reality their cheeks were red from running really hard. And anyone who ever has red cheeks is deemed socially unfit.

Every breeding comes with a certain amount of risk and potential problems none of them to be taken lightly.  I don't belive in designer colors or designer dogs for that matter. I just haven't found anything that says why a specific naturally occuring color is worse than another one.

Either way prager thanks for taking the time to chat and share your thoughts. It's a hot button topic and not everyone can sit down and rationally discuss it without resorting to petty namecalling and such.  I may not agree with everything you say but I can still respect your ethics and your standpoint.

Scarlet

Well thank you.
 You are talking about liver only however the topic is about all colors and their genetics. That is why I have mentioned other coloors.
 Thus
just for sake of clarity
let me ask you.
1.Where in nature are these, according to you, "natural" colors ? Like liver , albino, blues, .....
2. So according to you is it OK for dog get sunburn because someone wants to breed liver hell or high water?
3. Do you want to breed or other more or less qualified people to breed  any physical alteration of pigmentation like diminishings , dilution, blocking, lack of pigmentation, bunching of pigment or whatever you call it which is a degeneration? ( Read the definition of degeneration below)
 4. You said you did not include CDS because  it is  avoidable. However you failed to answer the question which I have presented in former post. If they are avoidable then why do we have them?
5. And since it also  is against the standard, do you want to breed dogs with disqualifying or major  faults?
6. Or you do not care about the standard?
I have other questions but this is good enough for now.
You say this is unimportant to you. Well it is important to me thus let me say this . You say arbitrarily that these colors are  not degenerationor sign of degenration. Here is one of the most common definitions of degeneration.
Degeneration being the process of declining from a higher to a lower level of effective form or vitality or essential quality.
Well I believe strong pigmentation is an essential quality since without pigment we can not live and diminishings of it is declining from higher to lower effective form. That is why I and just about any breeder in Europe which I know will claim that these pigment alterations are degeneration or first signs of degeneration and potentially will lead to other problems and some of them cause problems already. And to answer your question  that is why I think that these GSDs with these colors are pitiful excuses for GSD. We may love them as living beings but  I believe that they must not be bred  
since  I do not wish  to import any more problems into the breed by doing this.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

never heard of a liver getting sunburned,, if that was the case, we would not see red/liver pigmented sled dog breeds.

we have CDA in the lines because some breeders refuse to cull the dogs/lines that carry it.  they could care less.  there are other people actively trying to remove them from their lines, and culling dogs all together.

and some breeders do not take liver to liver and blue to blue for breedings, but we use carriers, and cross back over into different non carrier lines.

and the standard used to be against longcoats, but we all see how thats changed here lately, same with breeders arguing about raising the height standard to account for all the oversized showline males.

breeds which come in liver:
The B locus is responsible for the presence of brown, chocolate, or liver animals. It is also responsible for nose color. The gene associated with this locus is known as TYRP1. In breeds where the A locus does not come into play, any animal that has at least one B allele (and is not "ee"), will be black in pigmented coat. Those dogs, which have two copies of any of several b alleles will be brown. There are at least three such b alleles. Regardless of other loci, any animal with at least one B allele will have a black nose and pads, while those with any two b alleles will have a liver nose and pads.

Test for b

This test analyzes whether an animal has 0, 1 or 2 copies of the mutations typically responsible for brown, which is also known in some breeds as liver, chocolate, sedge, and less frequently, red.

It can be present at least, but not exclusively, in the following breeds:
Alaskan malamute,

Australian Cattle Dog, Australian Shepherd

Bedlington Terrier, Border Collie, Brittany Spaniel

Cardigan Welsh Corgi, Chihuahua, Chinese Shar-pei, Cocker Spaniel, Curly Coated Retriever

Dachshund, Dalmatian, Doberman Pinscher

English Cocker Spaniel, English Setter, English Springer Spaniel

Field Spaniel, Flat-Coated Retriever, Fox Terrier, French Bulldog, German Shepherd Dog

German Longhaired Pointer, German Shorthaired Pointer, German Wirehaired Pointer

Labrador Retriever, Lowchen

Miniature Pinscher

Newfoundland

Pointer, Pomeranian, Poodle, Portuguese Water Dog, Pudelpointer

Scottish Terrier, Siberian Husky, Skye Terrier

Weimaraner, Wirehaired Pointing Griffon

Also:

Any dogs that contain these breeds in their lineage.

cows, pigs, goats, chickens, horses, sheep, monkeys, greater panda,  cats, birds are just a few different species that can be found in diluted colors

this is from a horse website, figured it can also be applied to dogs:

Myth: Double-dilutes have poor eyesight due to the blue eyes.

Truth: Blue-eyes in horses have no more problems than any other blue-eyed creature, even humans. Existing research and thought in the veterinary circles is that they are similar to blue eyes in humans, in that they may be more sensitive to sunlight, but have no health problems associated with them.

Myth: They are weaker animals than non-dilute colored horses and have health problems.

Truth: These animals are as healthy and sound as any non-dilute colored animal. Just ask the owners of these animals that use them on a daily basis in cattle operations, rodeos, drill teams, show ring competitions or for personal use.

Myth: The Pink skin leads to sunburn and cancer.

Truth: The skin of double-dilutes is not a true pink such as is found under white markings. Its a more pumpkin color and in herds containing paint horses, bald faced horses and double-dilutes, the Paints and Bald-faced horses sunburn and blister while the double-dilute horses rarely sunburn. As far as the cancer issues, cancer is more closely associated with gray horses than double-dilute colors.

THE COLOR OF A STORM (Part Two) By P.K. House and Natalie Nelson

Last month we explained basic equine color genetics; the base colors (Black and Red), single-dilute colors (Palomino, Buckskin and Smoky Black) and double-dilute colors (Cremello, Perlino and Smoky Cream).

We also introduced the concept of When is an American Quarter Horse NOT an American Quarter Horse?.

An American Quarter Horse is NOT an American Quarter Horse when it inherits two dilution genes from its parents.

Based solely on color and color alone - AQHA denies registration to these animals, ignoring the pedigrees and bloodlines behind them. They dont meet the Excessive White criteria and on the animals which have white markings, those white markings are clearly visible and easily defined.

The Double-dilute colors are a naturally occurring color in the equine world and all breeds which have palominos and buckskins as naturally occurring colors have double-dilute colors; Tennessee Walkers, Missouri Foxtrotters, Morgans, Connemaras, Welsh Ponys, Miniature Horses and Thoroughbreds just to name a few breeds.

So why are these colors not accepted by AQHA? Well, no one seems to know for sure.

AQHAs position is that they are genetically inferior and they exclude them to maintain the integrity of the breed.

A color is genetically defective? But HYPP, Cryptorchism and Parrot Mouth arent?

And the Integrity of the breed is based on color? What happened to the basic building blocks of any Breed? Bloodlines, body type, disposition, the basic components of a given Breed of animal.

So given this information, what is being done?

Beginning in 1996 a group of individual AQHA members began a petition and letter writing campaign asking that the entire Rule 227 be repealed and the colors of Cremello and Perlino be added to the list of AQHA recognized colors. While the letters were acknowledged by AQHA, no action was taken. This effort continued until 1999 when the group was informed by the AQHA Registrar that they needed to appear before the Studbook and Registration Committee and make their request in person.

Four women, Natalie Nelson of Arizona, Robin Mitchell of Texas, Milynda Milam of Texas and Wendy Bockman of Pennsylvania, met in Reno at the 2000 AQHA Convention. Each team member provided a portion of the presentation. Natalie gave the opening speech, Wendy prepared the genetics handout, Robin prepared a detailed handout of her perlino stallions, Invest In Rodeo offspring, Milynda brought APHA halter win pictures of her perlino stallion, RFF Starbuck - the 1st APHA breeding stock stallion to earn a superior in halter, and hes 100% AQHA!

Though there was no mention in any of the AQHA publications or on the AQHA web site; Rule 227 (J) had the floor and the attention of the committee for a considerable amount of time during the Stud Book and Registration Committee meeting. In fact the committee members were mesmerized by the handouts placed at their seats.

By the time the opening speech was finished, the committee members were listening. They listened intently to the end of the presentation and the group was approached by several committee members stating that the presentation was very well thought out and presented. The group was optimistic that they had gotten through to the committee members.

News of the committees decision came in a form letter stating that the requests regarding rule 227 (J) had been unanimously denied. All who received the letters from AQHA compared them and they were all the same, just addressed to different people!

Through conversations with AQHA Officers and Directors it was learned that the Rule 227j request had NOT been denied but tabled pending further research, and was not even v

Through conversations with AQHA Officers and Directors it was learned that the Rule 227j request had NOT been denied but tabled pending further research, and was not even voted on. Many AQHA members wrote to the AQHA registrar; asking why had this information had not been passed along to the presenters. The letters received from AQHA in explanation of this simply denied that the Rule 227j request had been tabled, not voted on and that there was no research currently underway on the genetics of double dilute animals.

Next Month we will address the 2001 AQHA Convention and what has been done to further this effort.