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by Sue B on 08 February 2010 - 23:02
Who is Jeevs? Another annonymous entity who just happens to be a member of BAGSD;s, though as he states not a branch member, perhaps he is an EC Member. So this weekend he judged a group and put a GSD second, what is he actually meaning by this? So he put a GSD 2nd, as opposed to what, another breed, an Alsatian perhaps? Is there such a breed? Well according to the UK Kennel Club there is, though I might hasten to add, ONLY TO THE BRITISH KENNEL CLUB is there any reference to the existance of such a breed.
Jeevs should be singing the praises of the so called 'vocal minority' for without them his chances of registering his own individual vote on this issue would have been ZERO, NIL, ZILCH - then again he may be an EC Member in which case Jeeves could be Peeved at his diminishing power to have it all his own way.
One things for sure Jeevs will remain annonymous just as the majority of morons always do and quite frankly one can understand, if not sympathise with them for wishing to remain annonymous, after all if you knew you were a moron you probably wouldnt be too eager to tell people who you were either.? lol
My respect to John Ward for his message on this thread, its always good to know you continue to swim with the fishes, even though you still persist on bathing with the sharks.
Regards
Sue b
Jeevs should be singing the praises of the so called 'vocal minority' for without them his chances of registering his own individual vote on this issue would have been ZERO, NIL, ZILCH - then again he may be an EC Member in which case Jeeves could be Peeved at his diminishing power to have it all his own way.
One things for sure Jeevs will remain annonymous just as the majority of morons always do and quite frankly one can understand, if not sympathise with them for wishing to remain annonymous, after all if you knew you were a moron you probably wouldnt be too eager to tell people who you were either.? lol
My respect to John Ward for his message on this thread, its always good to know you continue to swim with the fishes, even though you still persist on bathing with the sharks.
Regards
Sue b
by Jeevs on 09 February 2010 - 10:02
Sue you lose any respect people might have when you have to resort to name calling just because people have a different opinion to yours. You also ought to be aware that only one of each breed can go forward to a group, so yes, there was just one GSD in the group I judged, plus several other very nice specimens of different breeds, but this one was in my opinion a good example, sound with a good temperament and of the corrrect type.
I have no issue with wanting the KC to implement health testing before registering, in fact in my other breed we have been fighting tooth and nail to get this done, we have also just come through a very difficult negotiation process with the KC during which time our club's existence was under serious threat, but because we were determined to do things the right way and keep pressing for the KC's help in getting our breed's health problems sorted and out in the public domain so puppy buyers do not end up buying a dog with a serious problem we knew we needed to have them on board and work with them to get where we want to be.
My point is that this is not the issue at stake here, and if you end up leaving the KC then there will be fewer breed enthusiasts to protect the future of the breed for the puppy buying public and therefore fewer people for breeders to sell their puppies to.
There is no option of only signing part of the undertaking, its all or nothing I am afraid, but if you walk away you will no longer be in a position to achieve what all genuine lovers of the breed surely want and that is for all puppy buyers to get a healthy dog.
I have no issue with wanting the KC to implement health testing before registering, in fact in my other breed we have been fighting tooth and nail to get this done, we have also just come through a very difficult negotiation process with the KC during which time our club's existence was under serious threat, but because we were determined to do things the right way and keep pressing for the KC's help in getting our breed's health problems sorted and out in the public domain so puppy buyers do not end up buying a dog with a serious problem we knew we needed to have them on board and work with them to get where we want to be.
My point is that this is not the issue at stake here, and if you end up leaving the KC then there will be fewer breed enthusiasts to protect the future of the breed for the puppy buying public and therefore fewer people for breeders to sell their puppies to.
There is no option of only signing part of the undertaking, its all or nothing I am afraid, but if you walk away you will no longer be in a position to achieve what all genuine lovers of the breed surely want and that is for all puppy buyers to get a healthy dog.
by Penny on 09 February 2010 - 10:02
Hi Jeevs
Given that the Kc cannot claim a monopoly on competition I see it differently. I see a rosy future showing the European way both for ourselves, and for the folk that prefer to do triangles quietly. I then see that with a good judge being appointed we can also hop across the fence and show there too jnder the KC system, because we will be registered with them..
I dont see this as leaving the KC - we will use the KC for the issues they can provide for us, and we will forge ahead with the important issues of health screening and exhibiting dogs being a forum for good breeding rather than a beauty competition.
Do you agree? I cant see any flaws in that way of doing things? And we can do it by not signing their agreement. However, if the agreement is signed, bet your bottom dollar within a very short time of the Regional shows popping up, that the signed up clubs members will be told they cannot attend as THEY SIGNED THE FORM ONLY TO SHOW AT KC EVENTS UNDER THEIR OWN RULES. Mo
Given that the Kc cannot claim a monopoly on competition I see it differently. I see a rosy future showing the European way both for ourselves, and for the folk that prefer to do triangles quietly. I then see that with a good judge being appointed we can also hop across the fence and show there too jnder the KC system, because we will be registered with them..
I dont see this as leaving the KC - we will use the KC for the issues they can provide for us, and we will forge ahead with the important issues of health screening and exhibiting dogs being a forum for good breeding rather than a beauty competition.
Do you agree? I cant see any flaws in that way of doing things? And we can do it by not signing their agreement. However, if the agreement is signed, bet your bottom dollar within a very short time of the Regional shows popping up, that the signed up clubs members will be told they cannot attend as THEY SIGNED THE FORM ONLY TO SHOW AT KC EVENTS UNDER THEIR OWN RULES. Mo
by missbeeb on 09 February 2010 - 10:02
I totally agree with you, Mo and so do many others. Our dog shows can be fun, exciting and meaningful again; we've been held back by the KC for too long.
It really will not take too long before the public realise that the healthiest puppies will be ours... the ones with parents who have met various mandatory health criteria.
by Jeevs on 09 February 2010 - 11:02
At last a reasoned reply. However I don't fully agree, and again say you are seeing things that are not there. If clubs do not sign, there will be less opportunities to pick judges who you might wish to show under, You already agree to abide by their rules every time you register a dog or enter a show, They do sanction the British Sieger, so why not build on that and work towards promoting the health testing and working abilities, putting on classes at breed club shows just for tested/working dogs? Bring in rules at your club for members/breeders to have to do health tests etc.
Joe Public (often wrongly) sees KC registration as a benchmark for quality, and will still go to breeders who only ever register puppies without any testing - use the KC 'bandwaggon' to promote your healthier dogs and you might get through to some. Going off and having your own shows etc would take you out of the public arena and leave the way open for the puppy farmers etc.
Who was it said 'watch and wait'?
Joe Public (often wrongly) sees KC registration as a benchmark for quality, and will still go to breeders who only ever register puppies without any testing - use the KC 'bandwaggon' to promote your healthier dogs and you might get through to some. Going off and having your own shows etc would take you out of the public arena and leave the way open for the puppy farmers etc.
Who was it said 'watch and wait'?
by jaymesie51 on 09 February 2010 - 11:02
Jeevs what you have said above could not happen if the KC undertaking was signed, we would not have the British Seiger as we know it because if we did it would be breaking the undertaking that was signed (double handling grading only breed surveyed animals who are of age etc) do you not think the GSD fraternity have been asking for mandatory health testing for years what makes you think that signing this letter will make them change their money making mind,Most not all but most exhibitors in our breed do health tests so making it mandatory at club level will change nothing it must be mandatory at registration level THAT IS WHAT WILL MAKE THE DIFFERENCE. The KC cannot stop any judge from judging outside their domain i think you will find if they tried this they would find themselfs in court under EU laws,If you believe the KC could stop people judging at any show they were invited to judge then that would be the same as your employer telling you that you cannot take a part time job or he will sack you.The KC are not the only one with rights we have the same rights and it is our right as a breed not to be dictated to or bullied into letting the KC ruin our breed.
jim h
jim h
by missbeeb on 09 February 2010 - 11:02
Well said, Jim!
Jeevs, we've been watching & waiting for years! We've been begging and persuading and pleading for things that are enormously beneficial to our breed... and it's done us no good at all, the KC wriggle and squirm and charge us for the pleasure!
They are the ones closing doors, not us! They've never bothered to reply to our GSDP about a two tier registration system. We have been totally reasonable and it's "on the record" as such!
by Mark3 on 09 February 2010 - 12:02
There’s a bit to this that doesn’t make sense, to me anyhow.
Why on earth can the British Sieger not carry on with health tested dogs?? If health is really the crux of this issue, would that not be something to convince the public that the GSD fraternity are putting the health of their dogs at the forefront? Over and above any showing style.
The KC has asked for refraining from double handling, and attention to the hocks. I note they’ve dropped the backlines. They haven’t said there isn’t going to be a British Sieger or that there can’t be breed surveyed dogs. Does double handling make healthier dogs? How does double handling make healthier dogs? It’s a legitimate question.
Why on earth can the British Sieger not carry on with health tested dogs?? If health is really the crux of this issue, would that not be something to convince the public that the GSD fraternity are putting the health of their dogs at the forefront? Over and above any showing style.
The KC has asked for refraining from double handling, and attention to the hocks. I note they’ve dropped the backlines. They haven’t said there isn’t going to be a British Sieger or that there can’t be breed surveyed dogs. Does double handling make healthier dogs? How does double handling make healthier dogs? It’s a legitimate question.
by missbeeb on 09 February 2010 - 12:02
Sorry... I'm not really sure what your question is, Mark3... try again please?
by Penny on 09 February 2010 - 13:02
I can see whre Mark is coming from. Mark double handling doesnt make healthier dogs, thats that one out of the way - but here is the biggy.....
The British Seiger has been approved this January 2010 for running this year 2010 by the Kennel Club - who have again, without notification, added a bit to suit their needs. They have looked at their letter, and seen a little loop, so they have added that it can be run BY CLUBS WHO SIGN THE AGREEMENT i.e. BAGSD they hope.
So. This year, before even securing their letter being signed they have made an amendment. Now, once signed, you are agreeing to work by their rules and regulations and only hold EVENTS (not shows remember) that they approve...... they will approve, for it to be run in their way. I would guess first off would be a clamp down on the protection side. Then the other bits will come.
Mark - look at the threads now that have gone on, and you know the truth of the matter is that the KC would like lots of Alsations, lots of triangles at shows, lots of anything that doesnt bother to conform in the main to any mandatory issues that would stop registration money coming in.
Yes - British Seiger even as it stands we can hold this year - whoops - no - only by a club that signs up - what for 2011 - 2012 - etc etc it is no good looking for your red rosette this year and ending up with VHC next year because you have signed away your right to do the right thing by the GSD. Mo
The British Seiger has been approved this January 2010 for running this year 2010 by the Kennel Club - who have again, without notification, added a bit to suit their needs. They have looked at their letter, and seen a little loop, so they have added that it can be run BY CLUBS WHO SIGN THE AGREEMENT i.e. BAGSD they hope.
So. This year, before even securing their letter being signed they have made an amendment. Now, once signed, you are agreeing to work by their rules and regulations and only hold EVENTS (not shows remember) that they approve...... they will approve, for it to be run in their way. I would guess first off would be a clamp down on the protection side. Then the other bits will come.
Mark - look at the threads now that have gone on, and you know the truth of the matter is that the KC would like lots of Alsations, lots of triangles at shows, lots of anything that doesnt bother to conform in the main to any mandatory issues that would stop registration money coming in.
Yes - British Seiger even as it stands we can hold this year - whoops - no - only by a club that signs up - what for 2011 - 2012 - etc etc it is no good looking for your red rosette this year and ending up with VHC next year because you have signed away your right to do the right thing by the GSD. Mo
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