Schutzhund Training makes dogs more aggresive? - Page 6

going back a bit,

no shutzhund dogs do not need to be trained that the helper is a bad guy..........if you want to go further into training like civil service (police, military or true protection), then yes this changes.

How does one determine if a dog has courage and fight drive than?  If it is all a game, than any dog can do schutzhund, and that is not what schutzhund was intended to be, at least not in the beginning.   Better change the name of the courage test too. 

no, not just any dog can do shutznund, there are many dogs, including GSD's that just cannot deal with a helper swinging a stick and hitting them and even more that cannot deal with the "courage test". 

With our club, which does everything all positive, a certain percentage of the dogs cannot get past BH. The don't have the drives. They are not interested in the leathers, or sleeve, the aren't interested in reveere(sp?) and or they run away in fear when practicing the courage test...........some guy running towards them waving a stick and yelling is just too much for some dogs........these GSD's don't have what it takes.....and should be neutered and or spay.

MIRASMOM:  No, your dog is not too old to do schutzhund, you need to take him to a club to be evaluated.  It is entirely possible that even though he may have been born with the correct drives, since he was not raised as a grip sport prospect, any natural drives and instincts he brings to the table were not properly nurtured.  This might mean you have a lot of work cut out for you both, or it might mean he will not be able to overcome certain aspects of the way he was raised.  BUT you will never know until you try.  Who knows, you might become addicted like the rest of us!

Defense, aggression drive  are as intrigal a part of the schutzhund trial as is prey drive.  In order to be successful dogs must be able to work in both.   The helper  purposely challenge/stress the dog, to activate his aggression/defense, to see if he will fight or flee.  Defense and avoidance are very close together.  The dog is stressed, his response can be aggression/fight or he can flee.    There is no mistaking this for prey drive.

MIRASMOM, did you see the post of the 9 year old dog that just finished its SchH3, pretty cool!

SitasMom,
I would love to see one of the dogs at your club, as someone said above, with a helper that knows how to put pressure on a dog, especially in the bark and hold. Just my opinon, but, the bark and hold is the real courage test. This is where the dog is face to face with the bad guy and is supposed to guard him, the man, not the sleeve! I think that is why a lot of people choose the term "long bite" now instead of courage test.
Have you ever had a helper switch sleeves with your dog to the other arm or use a left handed helper? This will confuse the hell out of the dog trained only in prey. It is locked on to the sleeve and nothing else. The dog is confused because the sleeve isn't where it is supposed to be. Prey only is a good example of how weak dogs earn Sch titles. This is the reason why your dog is unlikely to protect you in a real world situation. The "real" bad guy shows up at your house and he does not bring his bite sleeve or treats with him.

If your trainer was on the '83 world team he has used much, much worse (as in defensive) training methods on dogs than any of those mentioned above. Maybe he is trying to make up for all the harsh training he used in the past.

Axle jumps and snaps his jaws about 1/8 of an inch from your nose.....slobber all over the helpers face.......is that what your wanting to see?

Even my little sita will run straight into the helper and latch on to the sleeve - as soon as they stop moving she lets to and with all of her attention waits for the slightest of movement to latch on again............all with positive motivational training.....she lives for it..

We have left and right handed helpers.

He married a wonderful woman who taught him a better way........

Feel free to read this article: http://www.kraftwerkk9.com/workingdog_familypet.htm

Hope that helps.

k9helper,
That is a nice article and a nice idea, but I disagree with the premise.  All of the top level competition dogs that I have seen and the one I own do not make the best pets for the average GSD owner.  I like high drive, high energy dogs to work and compete with.  These dogs do not settle down in a house until they are 4 or 5 years old, IMO.  They are great companion dogs and pets for me because I understand and appreciate them.  But, definitely not for the novice owner as that article suggests.  With the right handler and owner a high level dog can make a great pet, but not with an inexperienced or novice owner.  

I also don't think that people who want high end competition dogs  choose the same dog that will make a nice pet for a family.  With that said their are differences in litter mates and their will be dogs from a litter that will excel as sport or work dogs and others will simply make wonderful pets.  Usually, not all in one dog as the article states. 

JMO FWIW,

Jim