Has anyone seen this before? - Page 5

But not all dogs have the atavistic ability to show standing hair. Thus just because we do not see hair standing  does not mean the the dog is necessarily strong and vice versa if the dog's hair  are up does not necessarily mean the dog is weak.  It is safe for quick evaluation by  gov  LE trainer during selection   to reject such dog when selecting such dog for LE work, but it is not necessarily an option for a person who has such dog. Then deeper understanding of what is   actually going on when hair stand up is necessary. It may be totally harmless. And if it is not then it needs to fixed and if not possible to fix it then the owner needs to know the dogs limitations.​

Ohh brother, yes some dogs do not have piloerection when nervous or insecure, they have other signs, displays or body language.  It is absolutely there though.  But, every dog that I have seen hackle up around people when confronting them or doing protection work has some underlying issues.  You can't get around that.  Now, because a dog is aggressive but does not hackle up doesn't mean it's a strong dog either.  You must be able to read the "whole picture" that the dog is showing you.  

Once again, hackles going up when playing is normal, it is excitement.  It is perfectly normal and my own dog does it.  This is completely different than a dog in protection and the body language will be completely different.  

 As a professional dog trainer I do not have the luxury to nix a client's dog which may or may not have problem  based on superficial sign as standing hair. I would be out of business really quick. I am willing to evaluate such symptom and  learn to understand it in a context with each particular dog and then go from there ether working with it, fixing it or advising the owner not to do certain training.  I can not tell the owner get rid of the POS.


Wow, go back and read some of my posts!  Please go back and read what I recommended to Sitasmom.  Hans, what you do not understand is that the "superficial signs" are what we "professionals" read.  Dogs communicate through body language, behavior and displays.  Good dog trainers know how to read these behaviors and signs and know what the dog is telling us.  For the record, I have never, would never and did not call any one's dogs a POS.  I also work with peoples dogs and other agencies dogs, a large part of my time is spent working on issues and problems.  There is no perfect dog, they all have things that can be improved upon and no dog regardless of the issues is a POS or expendable.        

You have missed most of the point I was attempting to make earlier.  I really don't know any other way or how many other ways I can express my opinion.  It's just my opinion and we can disagree.  

 

So can someone explain the difference between raised hackles in say a game of retrieve and doing prey agitation work?

Both are tapping into types of prey.  why would one be acceptable and not the other?


Why would it be ok while working in prey drive(either of above scenarios)? as if a dog can become overly aroused in this mental state and not maintain 100% clear state of mind and body through these exercises,  how is it going too when it is pushed into defensive mode? regardless if it has courage through defense of not.

Because personally I feel if a dog cant control its bodily responses its not completely clear in the head(at that moment) regardless of reasoning. and I completely understand there are many reasons for this and finding the root to solve the issue and or compounding this trait with other physiological signs. However it has simply been my experience when seeing hackles up there is an issue that has has to be found and dealt with. This is why I would like to hear you guys answers to the questions above.

 

samael28,

IMHO regardless of circumstances I dont like to see hackles. Whether it be playing ball, during agitation work, greeting other animals, etc....

If a dog can become overly aroused to the point it has its hackles up and or other physiological signs-  how clear of a mind does it have? Regardless if its gotten an adrenaline rush from being in a drive, from fear, or any reason I prefer a dog that has a clear head and is in complete control at all times not matter the circumstances.

Think of the dogs hackles like a wagging tail.  When a dog is excited it wags it's tail, it  can be excited and happy, excited and aggressive or nervous, the tail still wags.  When happy it wags it's tail in one manner, when angry it wags and holds it tail differently.  When nervous the tail wags and is held in another manner.  So, saying that you don't like seeing "hackles" would be like saying you don't like to see a dog wag it's tail.  The posture, body language, ears, mouth, facial expression combined with the tail when taken as the total picture tells you the demeanor and temperament of the dog.  When hackles are added into this picture you get even more insight into the dog.  Dogs will have their hackles go up in play when aroused or excited, usually at the rear end or towards the tail.  This is normal and not a big deal at all, similar to a happy, excited dog wagging it's tail.  A conflicted dog may have the hackles over the neck/shoulders and the rear end up with a gap in the middle.  
 
Dogs will also raise their hackles, which may run the length of the body, but will definitely start at the neck when approaching other animals.  I don't see it as a huge problem when a dog raises it's hackles when meeting other dogs.  I do watch how much of the coat hackles up.  This can be a poorly socialized dog, a dog aggressive dog or a dog that is unsure of the other dog's intentions.  Dogs will also raise their hackles when playing with other dogs, that is no big deal.  This can happen when meeting new species for the first time, like a horse for example.  A dog may have it's hackles up in these situations also.  It can be a sign of nervousness.

So can someone explain the difference between raised hackles in say a game of retrieve and doing prey agitation work?

The difference IMO, is that a dog that raises it's hackles during protection work is unsure, maybe confused, or nervous.  Confident dogs do not exhibit this behavior when challenged by a person, IME.  A one time event is not a big deal, a recurring event is an issue. Dogs do not generally exhibit this behavior when prey work is done properly.  Unfortunately, many helpers do not really understand how to work a dog in prey and not push it into defense.  In prey you shouldn't see this unless working a very defensive dog that has trouble working in prey.  Conversely, a softer dog with high prey drive may exhibit this behavior when pushed into defense.  Especially, equipment fixated dogs that become confused when the decoy pushes them.  For a sport dog, it is something that the handler and helper need to be aware of and address.  They need to recognize the issue as soon as it is seen and develop a training regimen to work the dog through the issue.  For a K-9 it can turn into a very serious issue as the underlying insecurity will always be there and may show itself at a very inopportune time.  I'm not recommending that anyone throws the dog out with the bath water. All dogs have issues and our responsibility is to help them through what ever it is.  

 

Thanks slam,

I was only referring to the top of the withers.  not hind end or tail.

However the point i was trying to convey in the questions was -

If a dog can show them during excitement in a game then why would it not be ok to show them during prey agitation work as well, if its still just a game. as you said a equipment fixated dog that is in it for the game. if both can be just a game why would it not be acceptable in both? Minus your point of non-skilled helper pushing into different drives than prey.

Also I understand the point of its just another symptom or piece of body language to be read and accept it as such. however if a dog is displaying involuntary responses of overwhelming and over exuberance why would that not be cause of concern of either conflict in game- or pushing to high into that particular drive to the point the dog is not thinking clearly???


also retreating back to the topic of pushing the dog in defense- if you are pushing a dog (obviously to build its confidence in defense) and you see hackles- wouldnt it be either you pushed the dog to soon to far? or the dog has insecurities needing to be addressed?


As far as meeting other dogs or species-- I personally have introduced many many dogs and the only times i have ever seen hackles was when the fight flight response really comes into play and i would much rather see a confident neutral dog not showing those signs of stress or over exuberance as both can lead to disaster as im sure you well know. And though it can diminish with experience wouldnt you rather it not occur in the first place?( I could be jaded as i deal with a lot of pet dogs with issues too)

Now as you stated a one time thing is cool. no different than a startled response with a nice recovery. Obviously I put more worth in a prompt recovery on first time scenario than many other outcomes.


Im am asking these questions as I respect you guys insight and am open to you guys interpretation. And please realize its hard to convey the message / questions i really wanna ask. as im sure you know reading a dog is hard to type about.



 

consider the case of goose bumps: people get them when they are cold, physically stimulated, or stressed. same response, totally different connotations.  if you were to assess a person's suitability for combat duty, you'd probably only care about the response to (common) combat stressors and prefer to hire folks that didn't display goose bumps for situations you define to not warrant goose bumps. if that very same person was highly responsive to, say the touch of a feather, you probably wouldn't care.

going back to the dog, i think you are well served to not (implicitly) equate prey and play drive and to go a step further and look at the components of prey drive, e.g. chase, focus, kill propensity. a dog with solid prey drive, i.e. high target focus and want to "kill", which we can condition to be many things other than an actual kill, is about as far from play as a dog in civil. in fact, solid prey bites are imo not as easily distinguished from defense./civil bites as some people make it out to be. a good look in the ol' peppers, on the hand, is often quite telling. anyway, you always have multiple innate behaviors occur at any given time and 'states' assessment gets complicated very quickly. hence the importance of experts unlike the numbnuts that got bit in the other threat. a dog's flight/fight response can kick in during any drive state and we actually try to use some of those very stressors to condition our dogs and even use them to affect change between drive states. but we also want the dog to be in full control (of its mind and body) while doing so. that probably captures the 'clear headedness' we all want, i.e., high drive, high focus, high engagement, total environmental/handler awareness and no, absolutely no (involuntary) reactiveness.

with a pup and young dog, you can a do a lot of conditioning to raise (or ruin) the dog's threshold via learned behavior, e.g., socialization, confidence building games, etc.  slamdunc gave some really good examples how to keep working it. personally, i don't keep hacklers in an ipo 'career path' unless they show very fast recovery and very fast and robust conditioning to the common stressors which gets you back courage. and when you talk about courage in this context, you really need to differentiate between fearlessness and courage. to me, courage is when a dog resolves an (internal) conflict in favor of fight. hence, the importance of quick recovery time. fearlessness, on the other hand, can be a lot of things ranging from stupidity to just very high threshold (possibly as the result of very high drive states). don't get me wrong, i like a fearless dog even if it's due to stupidity. the problem with fearlessness is that if it's not coupled with courage, significant negative feedback can extinguish that very behavior rather swiftly and you pretty much lost the dog. hence, we must work very hard and early on to teach a dog to resolve conflict, building confidence and raising thresholds in the process. 

Bebo-

I would not associate goose bumps to the ability to serve in a combat situation. As I have never seen a soldier get goose bumps from adrenaline within a high stress scenario of combat. The physiological signs are far different. However I am not confusing play vs prey either. Most of us can write a book on prey drive and the components within it. We all break it down into different categories. Though some of us may break it down differently those categories are still pieces to the puzzle- as i think we can all agree. My simple explanation of prey was to keep things short and simple in the effort of not writing a book.

I do agree with many of your statements in your post though!!!!

to another point of yours. I do like quick recovery. however I would not describe courage as a dog that resolves conflict in favor of aggression. JMO.
Here is why.   I personally break defense down   by   fear- courage- aggression( multiple categories of aggression). a dog that skips the courage phase and deals with an adversary with aggression can very well be simple fear aggressive if you follow the above line.

Now in regard to high thresholds. i agree completely strong prey can push a dog through fear. Just like a man that seeks gold blindly can rush through gunfire to reach his prize. Though there is still a breaking point. That drive has to be so high that it cant break in the given scenario to complete the task at hand. However it can be broken under the right circumstances.

My definition of a courageous dog-   a dog in control both mentally and physically in any scenario. A dog faced with adversary that measures and will make it happen. not only in protection but faced with any obstacle. A dog that will fight and die for its handler to protect its resource.(handler) A dog that even if surprised recovers quickly making correct decisions based on information at hand. A dog that will not back down from any challenge!!!

Now we know conditioning is a big factor here however i want a dog that can measure and judge a scenario it hasnt seen and has the courage or tenacity to go forward in environments it hasnt seen.




NOW IF A DOG IS SHOWING SIGNS OF OVER STIMULATION TO THE POINT IT IS SHOWING INVOLUNTARY RESPONSES HOW DO YOU TRUST THIS DOG TO KEEP A CLEAR MIND IN HIGH INTENSITY SCENARIOS??

sorry for the caps...





 

There has been good information in this thread from Slam, Hans, and Bebo. Excellent! For those that are learning, unfortunately nothing is absolute because you have to factor the whole dog and dog's genetics, body language, and environment, in interpreting a specific thing like "hackling" up. There is no point in reiterating all the information here, but this subject takes much experience to "read" causation and effect on future work with stressors involved. All three of the names I mentioned thoroughly understand hackling and gave good explanations for 95% of the dogs that hackle. There is always the exception dog that may not fit the box....but people who rely on exceptions to make a point are very misleading for novices to learn from. Lets not get caught up in 5% and benefit from the 95% that all three are saying which is the same.jmo.