Linebreeding vs Inbreeding - Page 5

Does anyone put any emphysis on sex balancing and also position placement of the dogs that are being lined on?  What are your favourite placement positions and how do you go about sex balancing.  Does it matter?  The dog that took second in the 2010 WUSV also the third place winner had these elements in their pedigrees. That is: Beit Haboxer Mehagiva and Dusty 11 van tiekerhook.

Steve your pedigree has this similar feeling of balance.


 

Sounds like you're describing when two lines "nick" together well, by complimenting or adding some sort of balance.  For example; the Nick/Yoschy combination that works well in terms of hardness and drive.

I can't get my mind out of the gutter about what sex balancing might mean, though.

Shame on you Daryl, forget the trampoline acts!

I think it refers (and I might be wrong here) that the engine room of the pedigree starts with the initial subject one wants to start building their line around.  The core! From there through trial and error using various dogs to balance or bring about the traits you are looking to reserve.  As the line grows and as dogs that are use in the core are used, then you will find that some will concentrate on getting the balance I mentioned above in place.  That is to say that say for instance if down in the dam side of a pedigree there is a dog with a desired trait you are seeing in your present dogs, and if say for instance that dog is not anywhere in the top half of the pedigree, then a female or male is introduce in that area to balance the pedigrees.  Now the question is where is the appropriate place.  Now this comes back to your nicking factor. 

Some people will say if the dog (male) is in the tail granddam side of the pedigree, then the introduction of either a son or daughter would be in introduced in the top half of the sires side.  Look at some of the pedigree I indicated and look at Steves.  You will see big examples of this.

Now I ask myself this about the old time breeders in Europe.  How did they do it?  Obviously they did not have the internet and the vast availability of dogs to choose from.  Lack of transportation and money would be some of the main hold back to breed and expand their stock.  They would be close to families and neighbours that work their dogs and they would see a trait that is lacking in their own stock and talk to that neighbour and said lets do a breeding.  Etc.  So I think they looked at traits that was missing in their dogs and add it as their stock evolved.  Now mark you, these neighbours and families might be working with the same core stock available in that area, and on, and on.  JUst my thoughts I might be just dead wrong.

Please bear in mind sometimes good traits, like your pack and willingness to please traits might just be on a gene that also "house" some undesirable traits that no matter the amount of inbreeding or linebreeding will not get rid of it and you either live with the accompanying bad traits that comes with the good desirable traits or just abandoned the line completely.  Breeding and gene combination is a very complex and volatile or dynamic subject.  If it was simple then we would be pumping out the Feros, Grief, Axel (just for you Bob), Orry, etc. like they grow on trees!

As a matter of fact, the horse people think they have found the gene that gives the horses speed, stamina, etc.  Now us dog people need to find the gene that has all the various traits we are looking for and through DNA testing, we can now figure if we have the right material to do what we desire!  Ciao!

 ten:

         Thats just the case, I never want to create a carbon copy of a ancestor I don,t believe you can do that. What you can or atleast hope to do is create a dog that maintains the common characteristics of the line being breed upon. And the more compatible dogs used in line breeding will hopefully preserve those qualities(god willing) . When line breeding(in my opinion) you must have a set goal that you perceive as achievable to focus upon. 



 

Agreed Bob.  I think we need to build upon and improve what was with a perceived goal in mind. 

I guess linebreeding/inbreeding GSD was more common in the past.I read an interesting article by Lloyd Brackett re his breeding program,then looked up some of the pedigrees he talked about (Vol of Long Worth,Chimney Sweep of Long Worth)  He made some interesting combinations..and apparently was very successful in his day with conformation line dogs.Do most breeders these days really have a program per se?

In the past, linebreeding/inbreeding strategies were in part a geographical necessity.  The advent of internet assisted in creating a greater expanse of marketing reach and influence, but there is yet much instability because of growing diversity and lack of consistency.

There's exception to that in the presence of goal-minded breeding programs that have taken their misguided views to create the ASL's, King/Shiloh shepherds and DDR pet-styled lines.  But for workingline breeding outside of Europe, the leadership fails in creating any sort of unity for like-minded breeders that will help them work together, rather than each going to their varied European sources.

Probably moreso here but also in Europe, the leadership fails again, in maintaining a  RELIABLE standard to guide breeders in ascertaining those goals.  There are many reasons for that occurance, but some of that failing is due to the leniency allowed, that's expected to encourage this country's growth and interest in the involvement with their organization.  Nice intentions, WRONG approach.

It would seem I digress, but both points IMO are in direct relation to why there's "less inbreeding" and fewer "programs".  Leadership is weak and focus is poor.

dpn , you hit the nail on the hat , what breeders do really have a program , and really build a line ,
in general , alot of people say , my dog is from the Tom line , or the fero line , when actually , all they really have is a tom or fero   gr. gr. gr.  grandson , with about 50 other dogs on the same pedigree

 

Regarding working line GSD who are currently active in LE,SAR,schutzhund etc,are there any breeders that are using linebreeding/inbreeding in their current breeding program?

I don't think many LE or SAR on the whole are involved in breeding, and those that do, not necessarily with GSD's.  In schutzhund, I can recall Melanie of Germelhaus doing some linebreeding on Yoschy, as well as developing generations of her own breeding.  I also recall a couple others who additionally don't belong to the commercialized pet profiteering group, but they breed rather infrequently.