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by Uber Land on 31 October 2010 - 18:10
how can I deliberately introduce CDA if I have a test for it to identify carriers? and if never bred to produce blues, what chance is there of having CDA?
I agree, breeding dogs with CDA is inexcusable, but we have options to help steer our lines away from the ones who do have CDA. and trust me, there are blue lines void of CDA.
I agree, breeding dogs with CDA is inexcusable, but we have options to help steer our lines away from the ones who do have CDA. and trust me, there are blue lines void of CDA.
by Uber Land on 31 October 2010 - 18:10
we could be having this same conversation over VWD or hemophlia. and we all know some of the breed pillars suffered from and produced these without being a dilute color.
by Scarlet Akai on 31 October 2010 - 20:10
Prager with all due respect
Am I correct in understanding your post to say that
1. because of examples like phenylketonuria in people which is sometimes characterized by diminished pigmentation we should stay away from diluted pigmentation in dogs?
phenylketenuria is a genetic disorder caused by the lack of a metabolic hepatic enzyme. the lack of pigmentation that is sometimes seen in people with pku is because phenlyalanine needs to be metabolized to produce melanin. Mental retardation happens when the unprocessed phenlyalanine level in the blood gets too high (and becomes toxic LIKE ANYTHING can be) and impedes the normal growth and development of the brain. Two completely different metabolic pathways that just use the same ingredient.
It's like not being able to process sugar you need to make the whipped cream you want to put on top of a strawberry vs adding 30 lbs of unprocessed sugar into 1 cake. The cake and the strawberry are completely unrelated to one another.
The reason pku can be so serious is because phenlyalanine is an amino acid, a basic building block needed for many functions throughout the body. And correct me if I'm wrong but I've seen zero research stating that color dilution in dogs was due to an in ability to utilize an amino acid. If it was there would be much more severe (likely fatal) consequences than just color dilution.
2. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. meaning that even though we don't have any evidence that the dilution gene is associated with any issue besides the easily avoidable CDA we should stay clear because of what might happen many generations down the line?
I agree that the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, but what about the breeds in which the only accepted color is blue? like the Griffon Bleu de Gascogne? It's an older breed that doesn't have any stated blue related health problems. That in itself is evidence that the color blue alone is not an issue. It depends on what genetic anomaly caused it in the first place. (Ie a white poodle versus white australian shepherd)
Prager what consequences do you think may show up further down the road that won't be noticeable until it's too late?
Am I correct in understanding your post to say that
1. because of examples like phenylketonuria in people which is sometimes characterized by diminished pigmentation we should stay away from diluted pigmentation in dogs?
phenylketenuria is a genetic disorder caused by the lack of a metabolic hepatic enzyme. the lack of pigmentation that is sometimes seen in people with pku is because phenlyalanine needs to be metabolized to produce melanin. Mental retardation happens when the unprocessed phenlyalanine level in the blood gets too high (and becomes toxic LIKE ANYTHING can be) and impedes the normal growth and development of the brain. Two completely different metabolic pathways that just use the same ingredient.
It's like not being able to process sugar you need to make the whipped cream you want to put on top of a strawberry vs adding 30 lbs of unprocessed sugar into 1 cake. The cake and the strawberry are completely unrelated to one another.
The reason pku can be so serious is because phenlyalanine is an amino acid, a basic building block needed for many functions throughout the body. And correct me if I'm wrong but I've seen zero research stating that color dilution in dogs was due to an in ability to utilize an amino acid. If it was there would be much more severe (likely fatal) consequences than just color dilution.
2. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. meaning that even though we don't have any evidence that the dilution gene is associated with any issue besides the easily avoidable CDA we should stay clear because of what might happen many generations down the line?
I agree that the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, but what about the breeds in which the only accepted color is blue? like the Griffon Bleu de Gascogne? It's an older breed that doesn't have any stated blue related health problems. That in itself is evidence that the color blue alone is not an issue. It depends on what genetic anomaly caused it in the first place. (Ie a white poodle versus white australian shepherd)
Prager what consequences do you think may show up further down the road that won't be noticeable until it's too late?
by Uber Land on 31 October 2010 - 20:10
Scarlet Akai,
you are more tactful and better with words than I. sometimes I have trouble voiceing my opinion, I do suffer from a health condition which does affect my cognitive functions, I can think one thing, but for the life of me, have trouble explaining it to someone else. you are right on in the above post.
in Prager's studies that he has listed, many times you see the words, "seems to" and "may". those are not definitive scientific proof, more of an opinion. I have read and re-read those links many times Prager and have yet to see what you are seeing in them. the only condition any of the studies list is CDA, which can be EASILY diagnosed, and easily bred away from. the black hair follicle disease is extremely rare, so I don't even feel a need to include it. it affects northern breeds more than anything, pomeranians, malamutes, akitas, ect.
there are FAR more dreadful problems that plague our breed than worrying over a nonstandard color which has not shown to cause any life threatening health condition or is link to any life threatening genetic disorders (colors are in the standard btw, just a fault, where as white was a automatic disqualification). if people placed more passion and energy over worrying about the health condition in our breed as they do trying to cull out all these nonstandard colors, we might actually improve something.
you are more tactful and better with words than I. sometimes I have trouble voiceing my opinion, I do suffer from a health condition which does affect my cognitive functions, I can think one thing, but for the life of me, have trouble explaining it to someone else. you are right on in the above post.
in Prager's studies that he has listed, many times you see the words, "seems to" and "may". those are not definitive scientific proof, more of an opinion. I have read and re-read those links many times Prager and have yet to see what you are seeing in them. the only condition any of the studies list is CDA, which can be EASILY diagnosed, and easily bred away from. the black hair follicle disease is extremely rare, so I don't even feel a need to include it. it affects northern breeds more than anything, pomeranians, malamutes, akitas, ect.
there are FAR more dreadful problems that plague our breed than worrying over a nonstandard color which has not shown to cause any life threatening health condition or is link to any life threatening genetic disorders (colors are in the standard btw, just a fault, where as white was a automatic disqualification). if people placed more passion and energy over worrying about the health condition in our breed as they do trying to cull out all these nonstandard colors, we might actually improve something.
by Uber Land on 31 October 2010 - 20:10
you list all genetic disorders our breed is known for, and you can not pinpoint ONE on the non standard colors as to being the blame.
by pod on 01 November 2010 - 10:11
Prager
Remember if you breed one trait long enough then you will invariable change other traits. It does not matter if you start with color and change temperament, or structure, or physiology, immunity or vice versa.
Yes, you are correct in that breeding for particular traits has an infuence on other, seemingly unrelated, traits, and the most obvious reason for this is founder effect. By selecting rigorously you are narrowing the gene pool, which has the effect of selecting unintentially for other traits and possibly the pairing up of detrimental recessives that have no association with the intended trait for selection.
I think Uber Land has explained sufficiently about CDA, and why breeds that are exclusively dilute do not appear to suffer any consequences, but just to expand a little more - the dilute gene is just one single gene with two alleles (known so far) and the dilute phenotype is the product of homozygous dd which has the effect of pigment granule clumping, making the hair shaft more fragile in certain individuals. THis genotype gives the extent of this gene's dilute expression..,. you can't get any more dilute than dd. There is no cumulative effect. THat's not to say there are no other pleiotropic effects, but likewise, they can't be cumulative if they're dependant on this gene only.
This notion that diminished pigment is associated with degeneration has some basis I think in that absence of pigment can effect in ear and eye deformities (among others), which are quite common in dogs with extensive white markings, but, to refer to the Belyaev experiment, white spotting seems to be an advantage to the fox in adapting to domestication. And to take it to the other extreme of pigmentation, the agouti allele seems to have an inhibiting effect on domestication in certain species, with solid black colouration being favourable. Perhaps we should do away with agouti (sable) GSDs in favour of black & white, if temperament is to take priority!
What I'm getting at is that genes have all sorts of pleiotropic effects and it's all down to how these fit in with the particular environment as to how beneficial or detrimental they are. The arctic wolf is a good example of the benefiial effectsof extreme pigment diminishment.
Remember if you breed one trait long enough then you will invariable change other traits. It does not matter if you start with color and change temperament, or structure, or physiology, immunity or vice versa.
Yes, you are correct in that breeding for particular traits has an infuence on other, seemingly unrelated, traits, and the most obvious reason for this is founder effect. By selecting rigorously you are narrowing the gene pool, which has the effect of selecting unintentially for other traits and possibly the pairing up of detrimental recessives that have no association with the intended trait for selection.
I think Uber Land has explained sufficiently about CDA, and why breeds that are exclusively dilute do not appear to suffer any consequences, but just to expand a little more - the dilute gene is just one single gene with two alleles (known so far) and the dilute phenotype is the product of homozygous dd which has the effect of pigment granule clumping, making the hair shaft more fragile in certain individuals. THis genotype gives the extent of this gene's dilute expression..,. you can't get any more dilute than dd. There is no cumulative effect. THat's not to say there are no other pleiotropic effects, but likewise, they can't be cumulative if they're dependant on this gene only.
This notion that diminished pigment is associated with degeneration has some basis I think in that absence of pigment can effect in ear and eye deformities (among others), which are quite common in dogs with extensive white markings, but, to refer to the Belyaev experiment, white spotting seems to be an advantage to the fox in adapting to domestication. And to take it to the other extreme of pigmentation, the agouti allele seems to have an inhibiting effect on domestication in certain species, with solid black colouration being favourable. Perhaps we should do away with agouti (sable) GSDs in favour of black & white, if temperament is to take priority!
What I'm getting at is that genes have all sorts of pleiotropic effects and it's all down to how these fit in with the particular environment as to how beneficial or detrimental they are. The arctic wolf is a good example of the benefiial effectsof extreme pigment diminishment.
by Prager on 01 November 2010 - 18:11
I will address some points here:
1.
Look, my examples are used only in general terms in order to challenge original statement by Uber land that there is no correlation between color and other traits. I understand that dogs with diminished pignmentaion are not having problem with phenylketeuria. I am not stupid. You completely wasted your time to explain that . All I am saying that there are possible changes, of temperament, structure and physiology, which could be either good or bad, which are associated with color and vice versa. I am not a prophet and I do not know what particular kind of changes will happen I just know that there is a possibility and good chance that they will happen like they have happened in my examples. I am not saying that EXACTLY same problems as I am describing in my examples are going to happen. That is either misunderstanding of what I am saying in my posts or intentional sophistry and thus deliberately invalid argument displaying ingenuity in reasoning in the hope of deceiving.
2.
Same thing with Belyaiev's foxes. With that example I am not particularly showing that there were detrimental effects of such particular breedings, but what I am showing is that it may take many years or even decades for it to show such changes. Good and/or bad.
3.
I use words "may" and such because nothing is definitive. There is nothing wrong with that. That is why we have such words. I do not know THE Truth. Do you?
4.
Also you say that CDA is easily eliminated . Then why is it not eliminated in other different breeds?! Because breeders do not give a damn or are ignorant. You are not the only breeder out there. Regardless how responsible you particularly are. Also I do not care that other breeds are based on degenerative dilution and blocked pigmentation. I just am against it in GSD.
5.
As far as arctic wolf example goes. They are white but there is there is no dilution or blocking of pigmentation because their skin is not pigment free->pink. They have black noses and dark gums and so on which is not what you may say about liver and other degenerative colors.
All I am saying is that by introducing diminished pigmentation you are introducing degenerative traits into the breed which will backfire on you later.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
1.
Look, my examples are used only in general terms in order to challenge original statement by Uber land that there is no correlation between color and other traits. I understand that dogs with diminished pignmentaion are not having problem with phenylketeuria. I am not stupid. You completely wasted your time to explain that . All I am saying that there are possible changes, of temperament, structure and physiology, which could be either good or bad, which are associated with color and vice versa. I am not a prophet and I do not know what particular kind of changes will happen I just know that there is a possibility and good chance that they will happen like they have happened in my examples. I am not saying that EXACTLY same problems as I am describing in my examples are going to happen. That is either misunderstanding of what I am saying in my posts or intentional sophistry and thus deliberately invalid argument displaying ingenuity in reasoning in the hope of deceiving.
2.
Same thing with Belyaiev's foxes. With that example I am not particularly showing that there were detrimental effects of such particular breedings, but what I am showing is that it may take many years or even decades for it to show such changes. Good and/or bad.
3.
I use words "may" and such because nothing is definitive. There is nothing wrong with that. That is why we have such words. I do not know THE Truth. Do you?
4.
Also you say that CDA is easily eliminated . Then why is it not eliminated in other different breeds?! Because breeders do not give a damn or are ignorant. You are not the only breeder out there. Regardless how responsible you particularly are. Also I do not care that other breeds are based on degenerative dilution and blocked pigmentation. I just am against it in GSD.
5.
As far as arctic wolf example goes. They are white but there is there is no dilution or blocking of pigmentation because their skin is not pigment free->pink. They have black noses and dark gums and so on which is not what you may say about liver and other degenerative colors.
All I am saying is that by introducing diminished pigmentation you are introducing degenerative traits into the breed which will backfire on you later.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by Scarlet Akai on 01 November 2010 - 19:11
prager
I didn't explain PKu in detail to insult your intelligence and appologize if thats how it came across. I only wanted to explain the mechanism of the disease to show how it was unrelated to pigmentation in dogs for those who may not have known and misinterpreted it to be similar from your earlier post.
" I do not care that other breeds are based on degenerative dilution and blocked pigmentation." I brought up the the griffon bleu simply to show an example of breeding this specific color for generations sans any adverse side effects or mutation. In other words it's not degenerating the breed.
The Belyaiev experiment is an excellent one, but the fact remains that they were specifically breeding for tamer temperaments with disregard to any other traits. That is an ultimate breeder no no when trying to maintain a breed and because this Belyaiev experiment isn't exactly a perfect comparison model. I don't think anyone should condone breeding soley for blues or livers (or solids or black and the deepest darkest red possible for that matter) I think that's the entire idea of controlled breeding to consider the dog with the best traits overall and have that dog pass on their DNA with a dog that compliments their genes well.
I am only trying to say that the dilution gene hasn't shown any detriment to the Gsd aside from those who ignorantly breed for them without care to the whole picture, but that has been done for almost every (if not all) colors in this breed.
"All I am saying is that by introducing diminished pigmentation you are introducing degenerative traits into the breed which will backfire on you later."
I understand your standpoint here, but so far noone has been able to give me any anything to support this theory. This is what I was trying to explain earlier that the dilution is not a result of faulty melanin production. Blues and livers are not lacking pigment they have just as much as the their darker counterparts. The visual color difference is due to their melanin "clumping together" rather than being evenly distributed. (my information comes from a study on Coat color Loci published by University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine I believe general public has to pay for the full study/report but I believe the cliff notes are freely available online)
That said I don't see how the healthy blue that has accidently popped up in a litter from two tested and proven GSDS is more of a risk than any of it's non diluted siblings. And if heaven forbid the blue pup had the best temperment, structure, and work ethic, how would breeding it to an equally impressive dog be hurting the breed?
I didn't explain PKu in detail to insult your intelligence and appologize if thats how it came across. I only wanted to explain the mechanism of the disease to show how it was unrelated to pigmentation in dogs for those who may not have known and misinterpreted it to be similar from your earlier post.
" I do not care that other breeds are based on degenerative dilution and blocked pigmentation." I brought up the the griffon bleu simply to show an example of breeding this specific color for generations sans any adverse side effects or mutation. In other words it's not degenerating the breed.
The Belyaiev experiment is an excellent one, but the fact remains that they were specifically breeding for tamer temperaments with disregard to any other traits. That is an ultimate breeder no no when trying to maintain a breed and because this Belyaiev experiment isn't exactly a perfect comparison model. I don't think anyone should condone breeding soley for blues or livers (or solids or black and the deepest darkest red possible for that matter) I think that's the entire idea of controlled breeding to consider the dog with the best traits overall and have that dog pass on their DNA with a dog that compliments their genes well.
I am only trying to say that the dilution gene hasn't shown any detriment to the Gsd aside from those who ignorantly breed for them without care to the whole picture, but that has been done for almost every (if not all) colors in this breed.
"All I am saying is that by introducing diminished pigmentation you are introducing degenerative traits into the breed which will backfire on you later."
I understand your standpoint here, but so far noone has been able to give me any anything to support this theory. This is what I was trying to explain earlier that the dilution is not a result of faulty melanin production. Blues and livers are not lacking pigment they have just as much as the their darker counterparts. The visual color difference is due to their melanin "clumping together" rather than being evenly distributed. (my information comes from a study on Coat color Loci published by University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine I believe general public has to pay for the full study/report but I believe the cliff notes are freely available online)
That said I don't see how the healthy blue that has accidently popped up in a litter from two tested and proven GSDS is more of a risk than any of it's non diluted siblings. And if heaven forbid the blue pup had the best temperment, structure, and work ethic, how would breeding it to an equally impressive dog be hurting the breed?
by Uber Land on 01 November 2010 - 20:11
CDA does run rampant in other breeds, and yes it is because the breeders choose not to cull the dogs or lines who carry it, the pit bull has the same problem. everyone jumped on the blue bandwagon with them, and blues were bred with no regard to CDA, so know it is in alot of bloodlines, same with the Dobie.
by Prager on 01 November 2010 - 20:11
I am happy for your Griffin. But as I have said before "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". There are many breeds of dogs and in other species too with problems related to colors and specifically liver and blues and whites.
Lack of pigmentation on and around the ears has been associated with hearing loss, lack of pigmentation around the nose is associated with diminished olfactory cells = diminished sense of smell. Lack of black pigmentation on nose of liver dogs causes sun burn. CDA in several breeds associated with blue, blue associated with follicilutis, dilution or lack of pigment melanin is reflected in midbrain where it has protective effect and thus diminished pigmentation causes temperament problems, heterochromia, white boxers having temperament problem, deafness ,Dalmatians, cockers, ................... There are examples of problems related with pigment dilution, blockage, albinism in dogs, cats, horses, rodents....., people. Dilution or blockage of pigment is a degenerative problem. Liver noses are against standard. Washed out colors are against standard . And for a reason. You can defend these pitiful examples of GSD all day long but you can not dispute successfully my point. To say my xyz breed is liver and they are fine is misleading because there are breeds abc which have problems related to colors.
There are problems in relations with diminished or aberrant pigmentations and there are no problems with relationship to deep colors. Thus I will estimate. Deep pigment = good. Diminished pigment and pigment aberrations = bad.
I am sorry about being so choppy. I am tired of people trying to push throught sophistry designers colors on GSD with disregard of potential dangers. There are plenty problems in the breed now. We do not need new ones!
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
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