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by darylehret on 21 February 2010 - 00:02
Thanks for the explanation, Heather. I guess I just have difficulty imagining how harsh corrections could even be used effectively to do this type of work. There's no necessity for it. The true beauty of the naturally talented dog, is that they flourish in their performance especially when they thoroughly enjoy this kind of work. IMO, any dog that doesn't really enjoy their job, as well as want to please their handler, perhaps shouldn't be in the field anyway. At the same time, I prefer a dog that can take a correction, and afterwards still have the desire and the clear thinking to do it better or correctly.
by UlfKintzel on 21 February 2010 - 11:02
I have GSDs with several generations of HGH titled dogs in their pedigree. I use them actively for herding. Both my female Fiona vom Quasliner Moor and my male Lenz vom Dolderbrunnen are HGH titled and can both be found in the pedigree database on this website. I intend to make a litter in 2011 with these two.
Regarding HGH trials: The First HGH Herding Club here in Rushville, NY has been so far then only club in the US that holds HGH trials. A newly formed club in NJ intends to have its first trial this fall. We encourage that. Some of my students intend to compete here as well. Good luck. Unfortunately, other clubs and people made many announcements about their intent to hold HGH trials but none ever has followed through.
Regarding sheep numbers: I find the greater number of sheep significant in evaluating the dog’s ability as a herding dog. Many students of mine as well as I are very familiar with course C and many dogs of my breeding have earned their title in this venue and we held C-course trials for many years. (The difficulties in dealing with the AKC, the lack of true herding regulations and especially the lack of qualified judges to judge course C made me stop offering course C some years ago). However, moving 20 to 30 sheep can be accomplished by a dog that may not be capable of moving several hundred. Now, that is my opinion based on my experience and I have no intention slamming C-Course, let alone having an argument about C-course versus HGH. BTW, we used 100 sheep in our C-Course trials, that is the maximum number allowed at that time.
In my opinion the breaking point for a dog in dealing with sheep is about a couple of hundred sheep simply because such flock can resist a weak dog quite successfully and the numbers can be overwhelming to a dog while 20 almost always will move, for almost any dog. That makes even a weak dog strong. The greater difficulty in dealing with fewer sheep is the flightiness. A dog needs to be very obedient and precise in dealing with smaller numbers of sheep while a larger flock can “absorb” more inaccuracies. I find that out every spring when I move small groups of ewes with new-born lambs from paddock to paddock.
There is another breaking point which I believe to be about 450 to 500. That again does not compare to 200, especially when these are ewes with lambs. BTW, 500 is the number I use during the season for training. This year it may be a few more.
The next breaking point is about at 800 sheep. The largest flock I ever tended counted 1,600 sheep and I would say the fun stops at about 1,200.
Sheep number in trials: The minimum number of sheep for a club HGH trial is 200, the minimum number of sheep for a regional and national HGH trial is 300. We use 200+ for now in our trials and have full intentions to increase that number to about 300 over the next few years. Molly’s dog Brix, a dog with some good herding talent, was trained on a flock anywhere between 300 and 500 and earned his title on 200 some sheep.
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Ulf Kintzel - White Clover Sheep Farm - 683 Bagley Road. Rushville, NY 14544 - PH & FAX: (585) 554-3313 - www.whitecloversheepfarm.com
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“Destiny is not a matter of chance; it is a matter of choice. It is not a thing to be waited for; it is a thing to be achieved.” William Jennings Bryan
Regarding HGH trials: The First HGH Herding Club here in Rushville, NY has been so far then only club in the US that holds HGH trials. A newly formed club in NJ intends to have its first trial this fall. We encourage that. Some of my students intend to compete here as well. Good luck. Unfortunately, other clubs and people made many announcements about their intent to hold HGH trials but none ever has followed through.
Regarding sheep numbers: I find the greater number of sheep significant in evaluating the dog’s ability as a herding dog. Many students of mine as well as I are very familiar with course C and many dogs of my breeding have earned their title in this venue and we held C-course trials for many years. (The difficulties in dealing with the AKC, the lack of true herding regulations and especially the lack of qualified judges to judge course C made me stop offering course C some years ago). However, moving 20 to 30 sheep can be accomplished by a dog that may not be capable of moving several hundred. Now, that is my opinion based on my experience and I have no intention slamming C-Course, let alone having an argument about C-course versus HGH. BTW, we used 100 sheep in our C-Course trials, that is the maximum number allowed at that time.
In my opinion the breaking point for a dog in dealing with sheep is about a couple of hundred sheep simply because such flock can resist a weak dog quite successfully and the numbers can be overwhelming to a dog while 20 almost always will move, for almost any dog. That makes even a weak dog strong. The greater difficulty in dealing with fewer sheep is the flightiness. A dog needs to be very obedient and precise in dealing with smaller numbers of sheep while a larger flock can “absorb” more inaccuracies. I find that out every spring when I move small groups of ewes with new-born lambs from paddock to paddock.
There is another breaking point which I believe to be about 450 to 500. That again does not compare to 200, especially when these are ewes with lambs. BTW, 500 is the number I use during the season for training. This year it may be a few more.
The next breaking point is about at 800 sheep. The largest flock I ever tended counted 1,600 sheep and I would say the fun stops at about 1,200.
Sheep number in trials: The minimum number of sheep for a club HGH trial is 200, the minimum number of sheep for a regional and national HGH trial is 300. We use 200+ for now in our trials and have full intentions to increase that number to about 300 over the next few years. Molly’s dog Brix, a dog with some good herding talent, was trained on a flock anywhere between 300 and 500 and earned his title on 200 some sheep.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ulf Kintzel - White Clover Sheep Farm - 683 Bagley Road. Rushville, NY 14544 - PH & FAX: (585) 554-3313 - www.whitecloversheepfarm.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“Destiny is not a matter of chance; it is a matter of choice. It is not a thing to be waited for; it is a thing to be achieved.” William Jennings Bryan
by darylehret on 21 February 2010 - 13:02
Thanks Ulf, for the contribution here. What exactly occurs at these higher number breaking points (450-500, 800, 1200)?
by GSDXephyr on 21 February 2010 - 13:02
(derylehert)<<<<MO, any dog that doesn't really enjoy their job, as well as want to please their handler, perhaps shouldn't be in the field anyway. At the same time, I prefer a dog that can take a correction, and afterwards still have the desire and the clear thinking to do it better or correctly.>>>>
I agree! I didn't get into this at all to hurry to compete; I was interested in it to learn more about my dog, and about the instincts involved in tending. If she showed no interest in doing this job and working together as a team, I would have just stopped. I would never force a dog into a job they disliked. So I was very concerned that these first impressions being exposed to sheep would have influenced her working association with them. When we started herding, she was 10 months old and she could NOT take a correction and keep working, and especially not from a stranger. She was pretty immature and sensitive. After those initial exposures she was completely avoiding sheep and stressed in their presence, I was worried that would be permanent. Getting our own sheep allowed her to develop her interest again and start following her instincts and willing to try working them again. She is not hard dog and she is very clear headed and biddable. Now that she is three she has matured much more and can take a correction and keep working, although it's rarely needed. Removing her from the stock and putting her away is usually all that is needed to get her back on track and paying attention.
(ulfkintzel)<<<
In my opinion the breaking point for a dog in dealing with sheep is about a couple of hundred sheep simply because such flock can resist a weak dog quite successfully and the numbers can be overwhelming to a dog while 20 almost always will move, for almost any dog. That makes even a weak dog strong. The greater difficulty in dealing with fewer sheep is the flightiness. A dog needs to be very obedient and precise in dealing with smaller numbers of sheep while a larger flock can “absorb” more inaccuracies.>>>
Now THIS is what I am eager to see with my dog. I feel it could go either way with her. She may in fact be too weak for very large flocks, or she may jump right in with all 4 feet and love having actually something to DO and stay busier. I don't know that she has the nerve to control a large group. With the small flock, she is rather aroused and frantic; but I am not certain where this comes from with her, just the reactiveness of the small group, or from a lack of confidence, or perhaps both. Either way, this is a learning experience for me. I am just interested in seeing "what is in there" as far as she is concerned, how much tending and stock instinct is still in there, what's lacking, what's strong still. She does not come from "herding lines" although there is a wee bit of kirschental way way back. There really is just nothing like being out there with stock with your dog and figuring it out as a team. It's the coolest thing I've ever done with my dog, even if we end up going nowhere with it as far as sport or competition.
Heather
I agree! I didn't get into this at all to hurry to compete; I was interested in it to learn more about my dog, and about the instincts involved in tending. If she showed no interest in doing this job and working together as a team, I would have just stopped. I would never force a dog into a job they disliked. So I was very concerned that these first impressions being exposed to sheep would have influenced her working association with them. When we started herding, she was 10 months old and she could NOT take a correction and keep working, and especially not from a stranger. She was pretty immature and sensitive. After those initial exposures she was completely avoiding sheep and stressed in their presence, I was worried that would be permanent. Getting our own sheep allowed her to develop her interest again and start following her instincts and willing to try working them again. She is not hard dog and she is very clear headed and biddable. Now that she is three she has matured much more and can take a correction and keep working, although it's rarely needed. Removing her from the stock and putting her away is usually all that is needed to get her back on track and paying attention.
(ulfkintzel)<<<
In my opinion the breaking point for a dog in dealing with sheep is about a couple of hundred sheep simply because such flock can resist a weak dog quite successfully and the numbers can be overwhelming to a dog while 20 almost always will move, for almost any dog. That makes even a weak dog strong. The greater difficulty in dealing with fewer sheep is the flightiness. A dog needs to be very obedient and precise in dealing with smaller numbers of sheep while a larger flock can “absorb” more inaccuracies.>>>
Now THIS is what I am eager to see with my dog. I feel it could go either way with her. She may in fact be too weak for very large flocks, or she may jump right in with all 4 feet and love having actually something to DO and stay busier. I don't know that she has the nerve to control a large group. With the small flock, she is rather aroused and frantic; but I am not certain where this comes from with her, just the reactiveness of the small group, or from a lack of confidence, or perhaps both. Either way, this is a learning experience for me. I am just interested in seeing "what is in there" as far as she is concerned, how much tending and stock instinct is still in there, what's lacking, what's strong still. She does not come from "herding lines" although there is a wee bit of kirschental way way back. There really is just nothing like being out there with stock with your dog and figuring it out as a team. It's the coolest thing I've ever done with my dog, even if we end up going nowhere with it as far as sport or competition.
Heather
by UlfKintzel on 22 February 2010 - 00:02
<<Thanks Ulf, for the contribution here. What exactly occurs at these higher number breaking points (450-500, 800, 1200)?>>
500 sheep still react easier to a dog than 800. These are the dynamics: if a dog disturbs 100 sheep of a flock of 100, the entire flock moves. If a dog disturbs 100 sheep in a flock of 500 sheep, the other 400 sheep remain unimpressed and that impresses a dog.
The lack of moving out of a dog’s way, the need of the dog to actually make the sheep move (as opposed to moving just because the dog is there) is extremely intimidating to a dog. As you probably all know, it is easy for a dog to go after “fleeing prey”, it is not so easy when there is a “face-off”.
1,200 sheep are difficult in the sense that the dog has to cover at times an extremely long flock when moving on roads and farm roads passed fields with crop. That in itself puts limitations to some dogs that may be quite good herding dogs otherwise but lack the ability or desire to cover the entire length of the flock.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ulf Kintzel - White Clover Sheep Farm - 683 Bagley Road. Rushville, NY 14544 - PH & FAX: (585) 554-3313 - www.whitecloversheepfarm.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“Destiny is not a matter of chance; it is a matter of choice. It is not a thing to be waited for; it is a thing to be achieved.” William Jennings Bryan
500 sheep still react easier to a dog than 800. These are the dynamics: if a dog disturbs 100 sheep of a flock of 100, the entire flock moves. If a dog disturbs 100 sheep in a flock of 500 sheep, the other 400 sheep remain unimpressed and that impresses a dog.
The lack of moving out of a dog’s way, the need of the dog to actually make the sheep move (as opposed to moving just because the dog is there) is extremely intimidating to a dog. As you probably all know, it is easy for a dog to go after “fleeing prey”, it is not so easy when there is a “face-off”.
1,200 sheep are difficult in the sense that the dog has to cover at times an extremely long flock when moving on roads and farm roads passed fields with crop. That in itself puts limitations to some dogs that may be quite good herding dogs otherwise but lack the ability or desire to cover the entire length of the flock.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ulf Kintzel - White Clover Sheep Farm - 683 Bagley Road. Rushville, NY 14544 - PH & FAX: (585) 554-3313 - www.whitecloversheepfarm.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“Destiny is not a matter of chance; it is a matter of choice. It is not a thing to be waited for; it is a thing to be achieved.” William Jennings Bryan
by bea teifke on 22 February 2010 - 02:02
Ulf wanted me to point out that i am on Ulf waiting list for 2012, sorry for not thinking right
toooo tired these days................
toooo tired these days................
by darylehret on 22 February 2010 - 05:02
I've not worked with a herd that large, but I would have guessed that the sheep near the outer perimeter would be normally reactive, while the sheep in center mass would be less cognizant of the dog, until the outer layers have moved foreward. This would perhaps require the dog crossing over more times, working from the rear to get them on the move, as well as along both sides to steer the direction, as the sheep from the perimeter become the leading half of the flock. Or, are you saying the difficulty is greater just keeping them in the graze, when not moving them?
by UlfKintzel on 22 February 2010 - 10:02
<<I've not worked with a herd that large, but I would have guessed that the sheep near the outer perimeter would be normally reactive, while the sheep in center mass would be less cognizant of the dog, until the outer layers have moved foreward. This would perhaps require the dog crossing over more times, working from the rear to get them on the move, as well as along both sides to steer the direction, as the sheep from the perimeter become the leading half of the flock. >>
You guess incorrectly, i.e. moving a large flock from behind is TOTALLY ineffective. It will push the flock together but it will not make the front move. You description of the outer perimeter versus sheep in the center of the flock is incorrect, too.
<< Or, are you saying the difficulty is greater just keeping them in the graze, when not moving them?>>
No, I was talking about the different dynamics or different behavior of a large flock versus a small group of 50 sheep or so. It has little relevance to the graze versus moving although moving is always the more difficult task for both the dog and the shepherd.
I am going to stop here while I am ahead. Your opinions are strong as I now read all of your posts in this thread. I disagree with most of that and I don’t wish to come into an argument, just wanted to state my opinion based on my very personal experience regarding flock size and what it means for a dog to handle that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ulf Kintzel - White Clover Sheep Farm - 683 Bagley Road. Rushville, NY 14544 - PH & FAX: (585) 554-3313 - www.whitecloversheepfarm.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“Destiny is not a matter of chance; it is a matter of choice. It is not a thing to be waited for; it is a thing to be achieved.” William Jennings Bryan
You guess incorrectly, i.e. moving a large flock from behind is TOTALLY ineffective. It will push the flock together but it will not make the front move. You description of the outer perimeter versus sheep in the center of the flock is incorrect, too.
<< Or, are you saying the difficulty is greater just keeping them in the graze, when not moving them?>>
No, I was talking about the different dynamics or different behavior of a large flock versus a small group of 50 sheep or so. It has little relevance to the graze versus moving although moving is always the more difficult task for both the dog and the shepherd.
I am going to stop here while I am ahead. Your opinions are strong as I now read all of your posts in this thread. I disagree with most of that and I don’t wish to come into an argument, just wanted to state my opinion based on my very personal experience regarding flock size and what it means for a dog to handle that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ulf Kintzel - White Clover Sheep Farm - 683 Bagley Road. Rushville, NY 14544 - PH & FAX: (585) 554-3313 - www.whitecloversheepfarm.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“Destiny is not a matter of chance; it is a matter of choice. It is not a thing to be waited for; it is a thing to be achieved.” William Jennings Bryan
by GSDXephyr on 22 February 2010 - 11:02
Thanks Ulf, I don't want anyone to be arguing either, but I was really enjoying reading your thoughts on different flock sizes. Having no experience with large flocks (yet) I can barely even imagine what 1200 sheep would look like; it seems an awesome idea to think of a dog working them!
I only have one experience with my dog on a bigger flock of maybe 150. We were watching another dog working them, moving them out to another field to use as a graze, from the back of my truck. When the sheep suddenly took a notion to take off down a side road and they were coming right toward us. My pup (she was young then) leaped from the truck and jumped out in front of them, stopped them in their tracks and turned them off to the side where they were supposed to be going. I was pretty surprised, but she had been watching and felt compelled to act in the situation. If you had asked me before that if she would jump out in front of 150 sheep coming toward her I would have said "no way". She surprises me regularly as she matures. I do think maybe the other dog gave her a boost of confidence. Cool stuff.
Heather
I only have one experience with my dog on a bigger flock of maybe 150. We were watching another dog working them, moving them out to another field to use as a graze, from the back of my truck. When the sheep suddenly took a notion to take off down a side road and they were coming right toward us. My pup (she was young then) leaped from the truck and jumped out in front of them, stopped them in their tracks and turned them off to the side where they were supposed to be going. I was pretty surprised, but she had been watching and felt compelled to act in the situation. If you had asked me before that if she would jump out in front of 150 sheep coming toward her I would have said "no way". She surprises me regularly as she matures. I do think maybe the other dog gave her a boost of confidence. Cool stuff.
Heather
by darylehret on 22 February 2010 - 12:02
Well then, for everyone else's enjoyment, I'll make this my last post in this thread. Although there's no herding clubs at my new location in Montana and aside from my current SAR training, I hope to eventually take the advantage of working on some of the real ranches in the surrounding areas that contain thousands of sheep and cattle on open range. If I have questions, I'll present them privately to you in email.
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