Schutzhund Training makes dogs more aggresive? - Page 5

today at club practice I asked everyone, including our training director.........we use only positive motivators to train our dogs........we never make the helper to be a "bad guy" - peroid.......

our club has some fantastic dogs and people, with some of the most experienced trainers in the usa........

Sita did he first try at courage test today -  she was fantastic!

today at club practice I asked everyone, including our training director.........we use only positive motivators to train our dogs........we never make the helper to be a "bad guy" - peroid.......

That is all well and good if your whole goal in SchH is to title your dog at your club field, which is fine.   But I can assure you, that style of training will not bring out the best in every dog.   At some point you need to up the "stakes" and push most dogs.  Do not delude yourself into thinking that because your dog works flawless on your club field solely in prey that it will perform the exact same way with a strange helper on a strange field.  Especially, if you get a strong talented helper with a lot of "presence." 

I understand most people in SchH have no aspirations of going to the regionals or nationals to compete.  They are out to train their dog and have fun, which is great.  However, many of these same people are surprised when they visit a neighboring club to trial their dog and the dog does poorly. There are several reasons for this 1) because it is not on their club field anymore 2) the dog is not properly prepared. 

Positive motivation is great, I use everything form clickers and food, to toys and praise to train my dogs.  There also comes a point in training when negative motivators are also needed.  These can range form witholding a reward to compulsion.  This thread could go on for days.  I would love to see a high drive dog trained 100% in bite work to even a SchH 1 level that has never received a correction, not to mention a SchH 3 level. 

When decoying for SchH dogs, I will pet them with the sleeve in their mouth, I will calm them and even take the leash from the handler and run the dog around after I slip the sleeve with the dog holding it.  Keep in mind this depends on the dog and level of training.  There comes a point where you no longer do this and it depends on the temperament of the dog. 

I am not trying to offend you, please don't take my response in a negative way.  I just haven't seen any clubs work strictly this way.  If it works for your club and you that's awesome.  I have decoyed for a few years now and I know I work every dog a little different.  I haven't found a cookie cutter way to do decoy work yet that is good for every dog.

JMO FWIW,

Jim

our training director was a member of the usa team in 83 - AND he uses only positive motivateors'

its takes a bit longer - and you end up with a truly motivated, and confident dog............

as I've said in the past  - we are Schutzhund and Schutzhund only.

 

I invite you to come train with us and you can see for your self!

our training director was a member of the usa team in 83 - AND he uses only positive motivateors'

Okay, I'll ask.  How does your TD approach training the stick hits? 

I mean, yes you approach with a very positive 'win/win' situation for the dogs at first but eventually it must be a 'threat' situation and the dog must have a 'civil' side to withstand that threat without getting chewy on the sleeve, froggy in the drive or worse come off the sleeve and leave the field completely.

It's been my experience that training protection in prey can take you a fairly good distance but eventually you have to incorporate the defense and the dog must show the courage and self assurance to withstand such 'pressures' (stick hits/drive/courage test) and that needs to come out of defense.

I had the good fortune to train with Jim earlier this spring and one of the things that absolutely made the trip worth it (besides the food. ;)) was seeing my little girl hold her own and show off her foundation training on another helper on another field.  That comes from self assurance, clear headedness and confidence, not from being locked into prey.

RLHAR, congrats on the SchH 1 by the way.  Good job!

Thank you!!

She even tied for high Sch I in the trial.  Given her handicap (ie ME) I was very pleased with her.

Oh!  Of all the amazement, she got a 96 in tracking.

have you hit yourself with one of those padded sticks?

I did , as hard as i could - it made lots of or noise, but didn't hurt............

yea our dogs get hit by the stick..........no it doesn't hurt...........

our dogs are solid, happy and un-abused........

I am getting the impression here that some may think that defense drive is a negative thing, and that putting pressure on a dog to bring out the defense is somehow bad, not what schutzhund is supposed to be, and pressure here seems to have taken a very negative connotation. This is not even remotely correct. Pressure to bring out defense does not mean abuse. It is imperative that the trainer be experienced enough to read each dog and adjust accordingly. I am going to try to compile some videos tomorrow morning of dogs working in prey and defense. I believe I have some from our group. Theresa

Just becase you work a dog in defense does not equate to abuse.  Posture, eye contact, using the whip can get a dog to concentrate more on the helper,than the sleeve.  You do not need to beat or abuse a dog to get it to work in defense.  Also if you are doing helperwork you need to be cognisant of these sublte cues so that you can work each dog to its fullest potential.

I guess I also have a question about your only using positive reinforcement.  How do you mark negative behavior?

 A verbal correction without any leash correction or e-collar is still a degree of compulsion..

 just because you are giving a correction to a dog does not equate to abuse ..

OK, not the absolute best example, but the body language here says a lot- check out the second video of this dog.
There is a small bit where the helper doesn't even have the sleeve, and pay attention to the wagging tail and perky ears. She looks very happy and outgoing, but doesn't appear to be the sleeve monster type........
http://www.eurosportk9.com/forsale/r/ramella/ramella.asp

I need to find some of my dog, he only has eyes for the sleeve....

Theresa