Czech GSD's with bad hips - Page 48

I understand your queries Ibrahim , but if you breed two dogs together with moderate and severe hips, you will almost ALWAYS get a majority of litter with hip issues.....how can you account for that besides genetics?

It's a complex question Ibrahim....take a look at research into epigenetics.

Ah, ok I understand, so bad hips produce bad hips.
Are there causes other than genetics? If yes how can we know the reason behind bad hips of a specific dog? Thanks

I was reading recently about hip dysplasia, there are studies and statistics etc but there isn't a known specific cause factor or known gene that causes it or a certain test to know who has it and might pass it, other than x-ray which shows it after it is already there, no vaccine or medicine to prevent it or cure it. 

You're right, Ibrahim, certain aspects of this breed cannot be reliably predicted with mathematical equations or scientific testing....maybe in the future but right now ....nope!

One good thing is I see owners and breeders are very conscious of this disease though they do not agree totally on measures and practices to make it less in the breed

Ibrahim the answer is in HD's definition. 
HD is polygenic problem with irregular pattern, it is  genetically predisposed and environmentally induced. 

 I would also say that all dogs and wolfs carry these genes. Thus no one can say my dogs is genetically HD free. The breeding is then art to push these genes further and further away . But they are still always there.
That is why you may breed a dog with so-so hips and get temperament which you need and then push the hips back in subsequent breedings.   I like to look at breeding as a chess game. You need to look several moves forward. If you breed while considering only one move ahead you will lose the game. That is why if you look at pedigrees you see normal and fast normal and noch zugelassen. Why not to breed just normal or OFA excellent? Because you would lose many other qualities in that process.

Next thing is the environment. I have written on it many times here  and elsewhere  so you can look it up. However the jest is this . :
To much of good (food)  is bad.
fast growth  bad!!!!!!!!!!!. 
Fat puppy = bad Pup should feel like a rock and like a mop.
Supplements ( all) make dog grow fast (r)= bad.
Superfoods =bad. ( superfood= high protein , shiny bag, very expensive, claiming its all natural , balance d and all that jazz  but none really is.) 
Granulated food (ALL)! = bad
Too much protein = bad
Too much shock exercise = bad 
dog over 40 lb in 6 mo = bad
short term balanced diet = not so good ( Compare to long term balanced diet below) 
overfeeding = bad
brood bithch fat = bad
brood bitch with minimal exercise = bad
All above is applicable to brood bitch too. 


slow growth=good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
skinny macular  pup = good
Cooked food = good
sunshine = good
meat = good. ( cooked for dogs under 1 years of age) 
moderate exercise  = good
swimming = good
organic Greek yogurt = good
raw goat milk = good 
gristle = good
cooked chicken feet  = excellent!!!! ( cook them really long - 2hr  this is a very, very stinking process. So take it on porch 1x per week or so. ) 
cooked bone marrow soup bones = good 
( While cooking scoop the fat or diarrhea)
long term ( in contrast with short term!) balanced diet = good. 
turkey necks (cooked) = good
beef hearts = good
underfeeding  about 10% = good.
All above is applicable to brood bitch 


Prager Hans

BTW it is not as simple as to say that bad hips produce bad hips  and thus  good hips produce good hips. Nothing is further form the truth. If it would be consistently so we would eliminate bad hips long time ago.

Thanks Mollyand jack

Thank you Prager, I understand better now,
I know the "compromise" from your earlier posts and believe in it

Ibrahim I think the point some people miss when they
start insisting that hip status is ALL to do with environment,
food, exercise, trauma etc, is they deny the genetiscists
have at least shown that we are looking at a polygenetic condition
with some as yet unknown variables.  (Unknown as in WHY
one or two dogs in a litter with parents and grandparents
that all have good hips suddenly inherit dreadful hips; and why
some dogs with apparently good hips and good upbringing
can still develop arthritis caused by dysplasia.)

Which is why Hans and others can categorically say that generally
you'll get good hips from good hips, bad hips from using bad hips,
it is inherited, but at the same time cannot be 'guaranteed'.

Where he is also right is that most of the time, if you do the best
you can by the dogs in terms of their environment, you decrease
the chances of getting one that grows up dysplastic.  But we still
can't totally eliminate all the risks, because we still don't know enough
about exactly how those genes work, or how they interact with elements 
of the food/exercise/trauma regime going wrong.  EG some puppies
can have dreadful falls while young, yet get away with it;  where another
might go on to develop hip or elbow problems directly related to the
accident.

All that can be said is that, just as there is probably some 'predisposition'
to whether we, or our dogs, get some form of cancer or not, depending
on a lot of physical factors involving genes, and hormone production,
so HD can appear in dogs that radiographically didn't ought to have it.  Or
conversely, like in my Vida's case, NOT develop it even where her hip Xrays
were ghastly.  IMO it would be next to impossible for a dog with a healthy
skeletal hip structure and no genetic predisposition, to become dysplastic
through eg diet ALONE.