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by sueincc on 02 January 2011 - 17:01
Darryl you said:
"duke, that dog does a summersault or rollover 10% of the time after the retrieve, picking up a mouthful of dirt as well. A casual toss was thrown in order to not bring him too high for the demonstration. Sometimes the toy's a bit much, and this dog works fine with only praise. He can also settle perfectly fine, and safe around kids and small animals."
You see, this is what I mean by semantics:
My dog does the same (flipping, headers into the dirt, etc..), so do the dogs belonging to all the people in our little training group, but most all of us consider our dogs to be "correct high drive dogs". In what little I have seen of Hutch in videos and from reading your posts, I would describe him as a really nice dog, but I wouldn't use the word "extreme". It could be your idea of an extreme dog and Molly's idea of a correct high drive dog are the same. This is why I asked if people could put up some videos showing the difference. Also, in this video you are showing some good beginning work with the dog, keep up the good work. Only thing, you need to put the ball away so the dog works for you and learns he only gets reward when he is correct, in the video it looks like he is only working so long as he can see that ball.
Regarding Duke's video:
We also do this. Playing tug is how we reward the dog. We rarely throw the ball as a reward during training, the reward is playing tug, at least with our high drive dogs, that's the game, tugging, winning, desire to possess the ball, it's all the same.
"duke, that dog does a summersault or rollover 10% of the time after the retrieve, picking up a mouthful of dirt as well. A casual toss was thrown in order to not bring him too high for the demonstration. Sometimes the toy's a bit much, and this dog works fine with only praise. He can also settle perfectly fine, and safe around kids and small animals."
You see, this is what I mean by semantics:
My dog does the same (flipping, headers into the dirt, etc..), so do the dogs belonging to all the people in our little training group, but most all of us consider our dogs to be "correct high drive dogs". In what little I have seen of Hutch in videos and from reading your posts, I would describe him as a really nice dog, but I wouldn't use the word "extreme". It could be your idea of an extreme dog and Molly's idea of a correct high drive dog are the same. This is why I asked if people could put up some videos showing the difference. Also, in this video you are showing some good beginning work with the dog, keep up the good work. Only thing, you need to put the ball away so the dog works for you and learns he only gets reward when he is correct, in the video it looks like he is only working so long as he can see that ball.
Regarding Duke's video:
We also do this. Playing tug is how we reward the dog. We rarely throw the ball as a reward during training, the reward is playing tug, at least with our high drive dogs, that's the game, tugging, winning, desire to possess the ball, it's all the same.
by Jenni78 on 02 January 2011 - 18:01
This has got to be one of the most ridiculous arguments on here in a long time. I also must throw in that it never occurred to me to videotape what I had always considered normal behavior for working line GSD puppies and I had to chuckle at those videos that were touted as anything more than proof of life.
Sue is the only one left on here making any sense and not participating in a pissing contest. She's totally dead-on; there is no dictionary w/steadfast and concrete rules and definitions. This is futile, pointless, and will never be resolved.
Sue is the only one left on here making any sense and not participating in a pissing contest. She's totally dead-on; there is no dictionary w/steadfast and concrete rules and definitions. This is futile, pointless, and will never be resolved.
by Slamdunc on 02 January 2011 - 18:01
Jenni,
Good post.
This is futile, pointless, and will never be resolved.
When one poster just argues for the sake of argument and one avoids answering direct questions it is futile. Sue, nice try to make some sense of the thread. If for some reason people enjoy banging their head against a wall have fun. Keep in mind, no matter how good your point or position, some will pick a contrary point just to argue.....even though they don't really believe their position. Their whole agenda is just to argue and stir the pot. There can never be a real dialogue or any resolution to a topic with people of that mindset.
JMO.
Jim
Good post.
This is futile, pointless, and will never be resolved.
When one poster just argues for the sake of argument and one avoids answering direct questions it is futile. Sue, nice try to make some sense of the thread. If for some reason people enjoy banging their head against a wall have fun. Keep in mind, no matter how good your point or position, some will pick a contrary point just to argue.....even though they don't really believe their position. Their whole agenda is just to argue and stir the pot. There can never be a real dialogue or any resolution to a topic with people of that mindset.
JMO.
Jim
by darylehret on 02 January 2011 - 19:01
FWIW sue, I completely agree with you on all points. duke, I did not say your girl has low ball drive. So glad we can move on now. Soooo..........how about those workingline best new studs? Anyone?
by SportySchGuy on 02 January 2011 - 20:01
It's like a group of 5 yr olds arguing.
Daryl: My dog's better than your dog!
Molly: Is not!
Daryl: Is so!
Jeff: My dog is better than both of your dogs!
Molly: Is not!
Daryl: Molly's dogs suck!
Molly: Yo mamma!
Jeff: I hate your dogs and I wanna go home!
Daryl: My dog's better than your dog!
Molly: Is not!
Daryl: Is so!
Jeff: My dog is better than both of your dogs!
Molly: Is not!
Daryl: Molly's dogs suck!
Molly: Yo mamma!
Jeff: I hate your dogs and I wanna go home!
by Jeff Oehlsen on 02 January 2011 - 23:01
I do hate her dogs. LOL
Quote: This has got to be one of the most ridiculous arguments on here in a long time. I also must throw in that it never occurred to me to videotape what I had always considered normal behavior for working line GSD puppies and I had to chuckle at those videos that were touted as anything more than proof of life.
Got any videos of your pups working ?
I see a lot of people that if something is outside of what they know, they don't understand, and they go after it. The funny thing is that she keeps saying that my opinion means nothing.
So do many people, yet that is all they write. I point out basic flaws in their way of thinking, and they have no way of responding other than my opinion means nothing. However, they will respond to most anything I post.
Then, you have the people that make up things that I have said, to make their argument hold water, like somehow I said my dogs are better than anyones at all. I guess that is just a perception.
Then there are misconceptions and half truths. My pups are in working homes. What are the odds ? There really are not that many working people out there. One or two breeders (going by numbers) could probably supply everyone that wants a pup who actually does sport.
I like messing with people that get all bitter and weird because you do not like their dog. There is no way that everyone is going to like your dog. There is also no way that people with limited (one sport) experience are going to agree on how to train something. I really agreed with Daryl when he posted about people not getting something that is out of their zone of understanding. I know I was pretty lost when I first started Mondio, there was no whip, no backties, and no defense work. I was already pretty much of the opinion that a dog has to bring what he has on his own.
That is where my point about shaping comes in. I could make Esko make the snarly face and amp up his intensity, but I do not. He likes to chase the ball, but is not as high drive as my Mals, but no way is he low drive. However, he really likes to bite.
That is the difference I see in him. he likes to bite more than he likes the ball. If I played with him with the ball non stop, I could not change that. It is in the bite work that he starts being a pain in the ass, and cannot hear me.
You do not see that when you go through all the drive building with a ball stuff. I do not play with him with a ball except in training, and lately we have started training more, but it has been months and months since we trained on a regular basis.
I like talking about different things and I could care less anymore if people get all fired up and emotional about what I say. Some call it pot stirring, but look at the argument that they bring to the table. It is more obliquely making fun of things I say than actually putting up an argument against what I say.
I figure that is mostly due to lack of experience. Now this is where people get all weird. If you do Sch, or police work, and what you do works for you, why would you do anything else ? Why risk it ? This is what I have over a lot of these people, is that I am willing to go out there and try new stuff, and get it wrong, and work harder to be better at some completely foreign style of training. I know that there are others out there that are the same, they just have much less desire to type and discuss things than I do, and much less desire to make fun than I do.
Of course there is no way that everyone is going to agree. jennie thinks that weasel herding is work. I do not. There is no standard in weasel herding, so anyone can say that they have a weasel herding dog, even if the dog is just snatching them up and killing them.
The people that make fun
Quote: This has got to be one of the most ridiculous arguments on here in a long time. I also must throw in that it never occurred to me to videotape what I had always considered normal behavior for working line GSD puppies and I had to chuckle at those videos that were touted as anything more than proof of life.
Got any videos of your pups working ?
I see a lot of people that if something is outside of what they know, they don't understand, and they go after it. The funny thing is that she keeps saying that my opinion means nothing.
So do many people, yet that is all they write. I point out basic flaws in their way of thinking, and they have no way of responding other than my opinion means nothing. However, they will respond to most anything I post.
Then, you have the people that make up things that I have said, to make their argument hold water, like somehow I said my dogs are better than anyones at all. I guess that is just a perception.
Then there are misconceptions and half truths. My pups are in working homes. What are the odds ? There really are not that many working people out there. One or two breeders (going by numbers) could probably supply everyone that wants a pup who actually does sport.
I like messing with people that get all bitter and weird because you do not like their dog. There is no way that everyone is going to like your dog. There is also no way that people with limited (one sport) experience are going to agree on how to train something. I really agreed with Daryl when he posted about people not getting something that is out of their zone of understanding. I know I was pretty lost when I first started Mondio, there was no whip, no backties, and no defense work. I was already pretty much of the opinion that a dog has to bring what he has on his own.
That is where my point about shaping comes in. I could make Esko make the snarly face and amp up his intensity, but I do not. He likes to chase the ball, but is not as high drive as my Mals, but no way is he low drive. However, he really likes to bite.
That is the difference I see in him. he likes to bite more than he likes the ball. If I played with him with the ball non stop, I could not change that. It is in the bite work that he starts being a pain in the ass, and cannot hear me.
You do not see that when you go through all the drive building with a ball stuff. I do not play with him with a ball except in training, and lately we have started training more, but it has been months and months since we trained on a regular basis.
I like talking about different things and I could care less anymore if people get all fired up and emotional about what I say. Some call it pot stirring, but look at the argument that they bring to the table. It is more obliquely making fun of things I say than actually putting up an argument against what I say.
I figure that is mostly due to lack of experience. Now this is where people get all weird. If you do Sch, or police work, and what you do works for you, why would you do anything else ? Why risk it ? This is what I have over a lot of these people, is that I am willing to go out there and try new stuff, and get it wrong, and work harder to be better at some completely foreign style of training. I know that there are others out there that are the same, they just have much less desire to type and discuss things than I do, and much less desire to make fun than I do.
Of course there is no way that everyone is going to agree. jennie thinks that weasel herding is work. I do not. There is no standard in weasel herding, so anyone can say that they have a weasel herding dog, even if the dog is just snatching them up and killing them.
The people that make fun
by Slamdunc on 02 January 2011 - 23:01
Jeff,
Do you ever read what you write? Does it really make any sense to you when you reread it? Cuz, you lost me.
Jim
Do you ever read what you write? Does it really make any sense to you when you reread it? Cuz, you lost me.
Jim
by Jeff Oehlsen on 02 January 2011 - 23:01
I am supposed to re read it ?
by Jeff Oehlsen on 02 January 2011 - 23:01
Yeah, that is a mess. Never eat dinner and type.
by Jeff Oehlsen on 02 January 2011 - 23:01
I got chopped in half as well. Good grief. That is enough typing for me today.
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