Ethical or not German Shepherd Breeder??? - Page 4

I second the motion, please answer the questions. Not too tough just go 1, 2, 3...

I agree with all that Chris had to say in the last post which leads us to a couple more questions - 3 & 4 in Chris's post ( for example if the put had been exposed to a virulent case of Parvo by the people who sold him to you - why or why should the breeder be held responsible)

and from me -
a. In the very first post you mentioned perhaps you should not impact someone's livilihood. Is breeding dogs this person's sole livlihood? If so did that cause you to pause at all even for a moment? Generally speaking such breeders are NOT the best stewards of the breed and even rudimentary research should have revealed that to you.
b. How many dogs and bitches does this breeder own and how often does he breed them? A very useful question in evaluating where a breeder falls in the spectrum from dedicated knowledgeble passionate hobby breeder to puppy mill? Do you even know? ( having chosen not to go there) By the way if you studied the history of the breed Von Stephanitz himself stated that no one should own more than 5 GSD because of the time that was necessary to properly care for and train them and keep their mind and body engaged.
c. Did it give you pause at all that this puppy had been sold to someone in an apartment?
d. You claim to have been doing your homework beforehand and yet didn't seem to get it that this was not the way to go about it if you wanted one litter down the road from a bitch who might or might not be appropiate for the male you would buy. Just reading this forum alone should have clued you in on that and the fact the breeder was unconcerned would have been another giant red flag/ So how much "research" did you really do?
e. Re #3 in your last post please explain why  he should "replace" something to you since you did NOT purchase anything from him. He might have had such an obligation to the original buyer ( we do not know the facts there) but he certainly does not and never had such an obligation to you.
f. And finally back to #4 on Chris's list - Why are you not taking this up with the people you bought the puppy from?

I would suggest you go talk to your family lawyer but I can save you some money. This is what he will tell you. Unless you have a document in writing from the breeder AND some "consideration" ( i.e. money) has actually been paid to him there is NO meeting of the minds, NO consideration and hence NO contract and NO obligation of any kind, shape or manner to you. If you had acted ethically and dealt directly with the breeder rather than trying to cheap out as pointed out above, then you would have cause to bitch. Your problems are all of your own making. Take it up with the people who actually sold you the dog tho even they would have a good argument that you had the ability to simply look if the dog had nuts and you DIDN'T do so. Oh and do enlighten us please and answer the questions.

I may be brand new here and still working hard at my homework but this entire post just wreaks of HOAX. I don't believe any of this. And I would especially hope as a new member of the GSDCA-WDA that the post about Mittelwest being put "not in good standing" is without any credibiltiy. If it is so than I would hope that the WDA is prepared to investigate every one of the large breeders in the orgainization to make sure they are not using the same alleged violations.  DIVMSTR1988 you are either not very well educated or hold little respect for the intelligence of the people coming to this forum for information. Roberts Rules are an adopted "format" for conducting meetings. That is all. FOI is a totally different subject. I have seen no announcement from WDA on the outcome of the July Meeting and in fact their website is annoyingly lacking updates on meetings / minutes and the likes. Wow, as new as I am I completely see thru this.

I also find it interesting no one is jumping on the original posted for buying a male dog for breeding prurposes (just once) with no intention of showing or most likely sch training and titling the dog.  It had been said that breeding an untitled dog is also unethical, even with hip/elbow certs.

Another SSDD on the board.........makes you feel sorry for the breed itself.

Here is the victim again. Like I've said before, I was foolish, or stupid, yes I was not the original buyer and yes the original buyers were also stupid and I also admit I didn't make a written contract with  the breeder, the original owners transfered it to me in writing and I had the breeder's word that it was transferable. I had  only his word on the phone. But that doesn't mean I don't have a valid contract, in court a verbal contract is valid and I thought I had one when he told me it was transferable, I wouldn't have bought the dog without it.Talk to an attorney and they will tell you that any of these contracts are very difficult to enforce, because of the cost to litigate, especially when your 600 miles away. So it's nice you breeders give these contract but most aren't going to wind up in a court if a dispute arises, not for a $1600 dollar dog. What the breeder is really selling is not only a dog, but his reputation, his word,  he is what he claims to be and that he sells what he claims to sell. This guy is a well know breeder, sells some adult adult dogs for $6000, claims he has a "customer satisfaction" 36 month guarantee, claims he breeds good genetic dogs, claims he follow German's standard of excellence in breeding. I've discover through personal experience and from others that these claims are false. I don't  destroy someones reputation lightly and admit that anger and revenge were my first motivators but  I did come to this board to get some points of view on whether this was correct on my part. I feel what this man has done in unethical, he shouldn't have sold the dog in the first place, breeds dogs knowingly with genetic defects, does not honor his  guarantee without a fight, lies, and breeds dogs mainly for beauty that have a ready market. So do I feel that I should let others know these facts, absolutely, without a doubt. I wouldn't have bought this dog if I would have know this. I just don't understand why the ethical breeder among you don't have mechanisms in your world  to separate these guys out from yourselves. As to this breeder responding, I wish he would, I've invited him ,thanks .Dave

I note you choose once again not to answer the very legitimate questions asked of you - why is that?
I would suggest you educate yourself a bit further.
Some info for you- "I had only his word on the phone. But that doesn't mean I don't have a valid contract, in court a verbal contract is valid "  Well not often. Check out something called the statutue of frauds which require all contracts for a value greater than $500 and/or that can not be completed with a year ( 3yr guarantee) to be in writing AND signed by the party to be charged.

Let me write it one last time for you - you have NO legal relationship with the breeder. By written and moral law he owes you nothing. You CHOSE not to buy from him because you thought you could get what he had cheaper. You can not now complain that he is not dealing with you. You did NOT deal with him! There was absolutely no consideration between the two of you - another absolutely essential element to a contract whether verbal or written. You did not pay him for a puppy; you did not pay for a guarantee; you did not pay for the transfer of  a guarantee. You paid bumpkas. Without it there is no contact. If you don't believe me I suggest you take your case to Judge Judy or People's Court - they would just loveee to see you make a fool of yourself.

"I don't destroy someones reputation lightly and admit that anger and revenge were my first motivators but I did come to this board to get some points of view ( why you refuse to accept them and refuse to answer very simple questions which might allow us to change our perspective) on whether this was correct on my part. I feel what this man has done in unethical, he shouldn't have sold the dog in the first place (why not , as noted above such a dog can responsibly be placed as a pet and we have no information that shows this is not what he did), breeds dogs knowingly with genetic defects (This may be construed as libel unless you have proof. As noted above there is a 6% occurence which usually is not predictable. What evidence do you have to the contrary. The mere fact that he has had prior dog w/ the condition does not prove knowingly breeding w/ defects. We have no way of knowing it such dogs were even related to this dog), does not honor his guarantee without a fight," (Please read the paragraph above. You have no legal relationship to the man thus there is no guarantee that flows to you.)

There is one final obstacle to your role of the Knight in the white shining armour that is going to say the world from unethical people. For this you need to look up the legal doctrine of unclean hands.You are seeking equity ( justice, fairness) as opposed to a legal remedy because as noted above you are SOL in that department. But the saying is "those who seek equity must do equity.   Guess what problem again because of your actions.
1. You tried  the cheap way out rather than dealing with the breeder directly and ethically.
2. You had the means of determining the dog was unsuitable SIMPLY by looking and did NOT do so.
3. You have no legal or business relationship w/ the indiv you are trying to claim damages from.
3. Your remedy lies with a 3rd party IF at all. (since you neglected to check for balls -see #2)
As noted above your problems are of all your own making. Learn that.
Beth Shea J.D.

BTW- I stated that it sucks to have been 'taken' ............I didn't state who did the 'taking'! Basically this seems to me to be an inexperienced person, trying to get a good deal on a pup only to find that you get rooked if you don't know what you're doing. I also stated that I have been ENORMOUSLY lucky in having found good, knowledgeble, common sense folks who all love the dogs & the breed, & who are all willing to share their vested experience with me. And I want to thank them ALL!

If you want to buy a good puppy....GO to the breeders....not just to 1 breeder, look at the puppies, meet the parents, talk to the breeder, play with the puppies. Get to know what you're looking at, & for. It's a big investment, it shouldn't be an impulse purchase. I wish you & your pup well, hope you can still be happy with him. My 1st GSD had some minor flaws, but she was, & is, the best girl anyone could ever hope for, & I love her so very much! Personality & brains mean more than testicles, (sorry guys!) ! Let us know how he gets on. Good luck! jackie harris

So TIG, the way I understand your post is that a man's  word in this business means nothing and the fact that he stated to me he would transfer the guarantee and  register the dog for a fee means nothing to you. Also the fact that he bred a line of dogs with this problem knowingly  and then sold a defective  dog to a fool is OK.It's only the fools responsibility? You answer me, and let me know if this is ethical behavior, that was the original question. Simple, is this unethical or not and should others be warned of this breeders practice and if not why,thanks.Dave

I applaud your thinking, VKF. Very well spoken.

Another lesson in this whole entire thing is, regardless of who you deal with, get it in writing.  Stating something verbally only goes as far as the one speaking's quality of character. The breeder TOLD you they'd do something, then maybe changed their mind. They just didn't bother to TELL you about the change of mind-it doesn't make them a bad person, but it makes them not so great to do business with, obviously.

If you really wanted a pup from the Canadian breeder, why not just pay for shipping the pup across the border to you? That's done all the time without you needing a passport. Trying to go the cheaper route obviously turned out very negative fro you, but you also found out with less initial $$ invested that maybe this line isn't the one you need after all. Maybe the apartment people who originally bought the male pup was already aware of the testicle condition (but told YOU the excuse that the pup was too much for them), especially if the pup has been to a vet a time or two for health checking-? It's possible. Might explain why they were really selling the pup.

So sorry about the hard lesson learned, Deor, but at least you will never make these mistakes again. Seems there's many in this wonderful hobby.

So TIG is this guy ethecal or not?

OK. Was the dog originally sold as a breeding prospect?  You said yourself that the Breeder would take the dog back and sell you one with breeding rights. (responsible).  The original buyer most likely told the breeder, "we just want a pet, we're going to get him fixed."  In which case...neutering would remove the testicles even if they are not descended.
The breeder was willing to transfer paperwork on the current dog to you (shows a willingness to work with someone who's clueless)  Most Breeders I know have two contracts, one on breeding that guarentees testicles, ears, teeth, so on and so forth...and one for pets that covers general health and does NOT include disqualifying faults such as testicles (that are supposed to be removed), missing teeth, etc...the average pet buyer has no clue what the standard is let alone what faults are and they don't care.  They want a healthy, happy, puppy family pet..
I personally would not have sold a dog to YOU, especially if you told me you wanted to breed "one time"   and that you had NO PLAN to show.  It is the one-time, throw two dogs together people that have puppies that end up in shelters and gets PETA pointing the finger saying "bad breeder, bad breeder"
What legitimate breeder breeds one time?  Breeding is a life long committment, all the hours spent researching, money spent in travel to evaluate homes, studs, potential breeding stock, the dissappointments in failed breedings, the joy in seeing one of your breeding in the ring or any competition...There is no "breed one time"
As to the breeder having two other dogs living normal lives...it's probably true and those owners probably swear they have the perfect dogs.  And 2 out of how many?  This breeder may be trying to eliminate where the problem is but you would not know that...because "one time" breeders dont care to do any of the real dirty work involved in breeding.
Furthermore, MOST vets are anti-breeder and they tell people ANYTHING to be able to say MUST spay/neuter.  I have known vets that could not find testicles..hell, I have known Judges that didn't notice on a young pup if they were not there.
HAVE YOU checked the testicles?  When they are young and stressed....like at a vet visit, the testicles will draw up...and so, because you have no idea what you are doing, they may infact be there and you don't know it..
You are lucky, because If I had been the Breeder and you had called me I would have been polite as hell got some information from you, come to your location with my copy of a contract with the original owner that states that the dog would come back to me to be re-homed, and the local Sherriff, and after identifying my dog, would have taken him back so that he didn't end up in the hands of a one-time...(I am not going to say breeder because it is an insult to true breeders)...so a one time dog pimp.