Has anyone seen this before? - Page 4

I was trying to confer that hackling could be a trained response, I guess, but I've gotten several very well spoken responses to the effect that it is not, it indicates conflict; but if Pavlov could condition a dog to drool on a auditory cue, I think I will stand by my belief that hackling could be a trained or conditioned response as well. I think the fault was mine, as I was not articulating very well, due to the combination of pain & pain meds....Im feeling better today!
jackie harris

Hey Jackie,
I'm glad your feeling better today.  

As stated by several people, such as Christine and Bebo far more better than I did, the hackles show arousal or excitement.  It really depends on all of the other body language signs that the dog is showing.  Dogs will do the behavior that you describe when playing with other dogs, it can remain playful especially with the language of the "play bow" or it can turn rough.  It depends on the relationship of the dogs involved.  I would imagine that you encouraged this behavior and the dog viewed it as a game.  If your dog and you understood it was a game and the dog was "playing" with you, it is not a big deal.  I view your description of what was occurring differently than some of the other examples given in this thread.  I certainly view it differently than what Sitasmom described with Jyota.  I would compare your play and description of the game to two dogs playing together, often times when dogs "rough house" it sounds serious and it really isn't.  Leading some people to believe that the dogs where in a serious fight.  In reality it is just the dogs being boisterous and vocal, having fun and nothing serious.  Personally, I do not "rough house" with my dogs.  Not that there is anything wrong with it for a dog that understands it's place and the relationship and bond is good with the owner.  The games I play all revolve around training or time is spent letting the dog be a dog.      

A behaviorist told me that some dogs simply hackle up easier than others, like some people blush easier that others. My 2nd GSD used  to raise his hackles when I played ball with him. He raised them when he chased the ball, dropped them when he picked up the ball and returned it to me.

Fight or flight.

 Nagative challenge->leads to 
Insecure => flight
courageous => fight.  
  Hair standing up - pilomotor reflex cased by smooth muscle called erector pillie are function-caused by  adrenaline or as it is called epinephrine and catecholamine which is caused by fight X flight syndrome. Adrenaline my be secreted by several reasons. Fear , anger or extreme excitement, cold. Let's first talk about excitement secretion of adrenaline which  is cased  by fear like in free climbers, bungee jumpers, and other thrill seekers, who however are actually actively looking for adrenaline rush and enjoy it  and are looking forward to it. Same way a dog is looking forward to such adrenaline rush when he is conditioned that after specific command such rush will occur. Their actions are  perfect, skillful  and balanced and not at all limited by fear which cased this rush in the first place.  But they are defined by the  enjoyment even so the source of the enjoyment was initially fear of danger.  

         But lets talk about fear by itself.  Fear by itself is not a bad thing. The question is how does the dog deal with it. Fear is a response to some potentially dangerous unknown or to known which is dangerous. Biologically fear causes adrenalin/epinephrine  to secrete which then heighten the senses, increases its heart beat and increases the speed of responses and memory. It is a survival mode which  makes the dog better fighter  or "flighter" .

           The hair standing up is a result of  atavistic effect of adrenaline. Atavistic means that such effect used to be important in wild predecessors of domestic dog, but it is not so important in dogs of today. Some still display it and some do not display it. It would be mistake to see a mere simple/single presence of such  atavistic pilomotor reflex as  the defining sign of instability of a working dog. For that we need to observe other parallel  signs. Like is the dog about to run, position of the tail, ability to produce  fight drive and so on...    However adrenaline secretion causing   subsequent atavistic pilomotor reflex ( standing hair)  does not mean that the dog is fear-full - full of fear or acting strictly and only out of fear which would made him useless as a working dog doing protection.  

As I said before  the dog in successful defense succession of events goes like this: 
NEGATIVE CHALLENGE-------> FEAR OR SUSPICION----------> OVERCOME BY COURAGE ------------> THROUGH AGGRESSION
 

If the dog goes through this sequence successfully then all is OK as far as working dog's protection abilities go.  Thus fear then can be overcome by courage ->fight or animal can succumbed to fear and we have-> flight. 

What I am trying to convey here is that every dog in defense - protection mode( drive) is initially going through fear which starts after he recognizes the danger to his survival. The important factor is what is the response to such fear. The fear period in face of unknown or unfamiliar danger may be very short - almost non existent or it may be longer. That is what Sitasmom seen in her dog if it is not just sheer excitement. And that is what we may see in the dogs encountering such unfamiliar and potentially dangerous situation at the first time. However after a while and through proper training the fear period will start to shorten down and  be very brief or will go completely away.  All normal sound dogs go through this. Some can deal with fear well and fast and some less well and some will flee sooner then the others. All dogs are different and we as trainers need to deal with it. However standing hair are just one of possible symptoms which in presence of danger some dogs display and some do not. 

That leads me to what I call courage: Ability to overcome fear. 

 I personally recognize inherited and acquired courage. Inherited courage is more valuable since when you stress the dog enough eventually, regardless of training,  the dog will need to reach into what s/he is actually made out of, his genetics and inheritance.  

Acquired courage is important as far as it is developing inherited courage.  However if acquired courage  stands on its own without benefit of inherited courage then a dog will be able to deal only with the stress for which particularly it is trained and not any other. Where the dog with inherited courage is so to speak "carrying" such courage with him at all times into any situation. 

 A dog which is strictly in  prey, as some sport people do train their dogs,   will look really courageous since s/he and will not display fearful behavior, not because s/he is courageous, but because there is nothing to be afraid of. 

 
 Dog strictly in prey only looks courageous but since it is not overcoming any danger such perception is false.   

Thanks, bebo and Blitzen, I think noone else was satisfied that it could be so easy to explain "hackles"! It is so simple...it's very similar to our goose bumps...they are involuntary and have nothing to do with drive.
Anika, what you really should do is to find a club with people that have lots of experience with dogs and work with them. I don't think all this talk about drive or no drive or what-ever-drive makes any sense or helps you any further.

Or in the case of a sharp / shy dog you have this:

Nagative challenge->leads to 
Insecure => fight not flight
not courageous => but uses fight or aggression => drives away threat => dog learns to use aggression to deal with any perceived threat.  
 

 However adrenaline secretion causing   subsequent atavistic pilomotor reflex ( standing hair)  does not mean that the dog is fear-full - full of fear or acting strictly and only out of fear which would made him useless as a working dog doing protection.  

That leads me to what I call courage: Ability to overcome fear. 

I see this differently.  To me it means the dog is insecure and does not have significant nerve strength to be useful as a true working dog.  Some dogs that are a little insecure can make very good working dogs, even good Police Dogs.  The slight, underlying insecurity can cause the dog to be more reactive and go forward with aggression.  They have lower thresholds and may view people suspiciously and be quick to react.  Handled and trained properly this can be useful.  Overcoming fear with aggression does not always make a dog courageous.  

As I said in an earlier post, a dog can be startled and show it's hackles, if the dog recovers quickly that is fine.  When this behavior continues and happens around people in a fairly neutral environment or when doing protection training, it is very undesirable.  

 

Jim I see some points which you are making as valid.
 But not all dogs have the atavistic ability to show standing hair. Thus just because we do not see hair standing  does not mean the the dog is necessarily strong and vice versa if the dog's hair  are up does not necessarily mean the dog is weak.  It is safe for quick evaluation by  gov  LE trainer during selection   to reject such dog when selecting such dog for LE work, but it is not necessarily an option for a person who has such dog. Then deeper understanding of what is   actually going on when hair stand up is necessary. It may be totally harmless. And if it is not then it needs to fixed and if not possible to fix it then the owner needs to know the dogs limitations.
 As a professional dog trainer I do not have the luxury to nix a client's dog which may or may not have problem  based on superficial sign as standing hair. I would be out of business really quick. I am willing to evaluate such symptom and  learn to understand it in a context with each particular dog and then go from there ether working with it, fixing it or advising the owner not to do certain training.  I can not tell the owner get rid of the POS. 
Prager Hans

Wow, this is a very interesting discussion, & I am learning so much, thank you! jackie harris

One of my GSD males hackled up when playing all the time.  I was a bit concerned at first, but then chalked it up to extreme arousal/excitement.  He would hackle up chasing a ball and then it would calm down as he was bringing it back. I knew he wasn't afraid of his ball, or that he wanted to fight with his ball.  Just arousal.

IMHO regardless of circumstances I dont like to see hackles. Whether it be playing ball, during agitation work, greeting other animals, etc....

If a dog can become overly aroused to the point it has its hackles up and or other physiological signs-  how clear of a mind does it have? Regardless if its gotten an adrenaline rush from being in a drive, from fear, or any reason I prefer a dog that has a clear head and is in complete control at all times not matter the circumstances.


Not saying this cant be reversed in some cases by appropriate conditioning/training but i would prefer not to have to train it out in my own dogs.

FWIW