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by workingdogz on 02 January 2013 - 19:01
Paul, with all due respect, I beg to differ with your claim that mutt's are overall more
healthy than purebred dogs. I can't even count on all my fingers and toes how many
'mutts' that are owned by friends and business associates that have had hip issues,
ACL, cancer etc etc etc. I just don't buy that at all, sorry.
And Mystere, I am very much a he, otherwise my wife of over 20 years
is going to be rightfully upset with me.
healthy than purebred dogs. I can't even count on all my fingers and toes how many
'mutts' that are owned by friends and business associates that have had hip issues,
ACL, cancer etc etc etc. I just don't buy that at all, sorry.
And Mystere, I am very much a he, otherwise my wife of over 20 years
is going to be rightfully upset with me.
by Paul Garrison on 02 January 2013 - 19:01
Working dogz I agree with your post at the top of the page and I think it is good advice and I hope Dirk will take a strong look.
As for your statement to me you can not count on your fingers and toes the amount of HD cancer ect ect. that is too out there of a statement for me to believe to be true.
Paul
As for your statement to me you can not count on your fingers and toes the amount of HD cancer ect ect. that is too out there of a statement for me to believe to be true.
Paul
by Hundmutter on 02 January 2013 - 20:01
Paul, you should believe him. "Hybrid Vigour" has gained some
mythalogical status; the fact is it only applies to the FIRST CROSS,
its limited, and isn't some long term health insurance for all mongrels.
And even the f1 (first cross) generation from two purebreds is still not
guaranteed to be healthier in all repects - they can for instance fall
prey to hereditary diseases passed on by one or both parents.
I too know, or have known in the past, an awful lot of crossbred and
mongrel dogs of all types that have suffered a variety of cancers, heart
deficits, intractable skin problems. I just haven't come across any with
HD, personally; but i have heard about their existence, from other dog
ppl.
mythalogical status; the fact is it only applies to the FIRST CROSS,
its limited, and isn't some long term health insurance for all mongrels.
And even the f1 (first cross) generation from two purebreds is still not
guaranteed to be healthier in all repects - they can for instance fall
prey to hereditary diseases passed on by one or both parents.
I too know, or have known in the past, an awful lot of crossbred and
mongrel dogs of all types that have suffered a variety of cancers, heart
deficits, intractable skin problems. I just haven't come across any with
HD, personally; but i have heard about their existence, from other dog
ppl.
by Mystere on 02 January 2013 - 21:01
"Hybrid" is not a synonym for "invincible." 
No one has ever claimed that hybrids have NO health issues, or can stop speeding bullets. It also does not mean "mongrel." Hybrid vigor also applies to gsd outcrosses, such as a show/working line cross, where there would be no common ancestor for 8 or more generations.
No one has ever claimed that hybrids have NO health issues, or can stop speeding bullets. It also does not mean "mongrel." Hybrid vigor also applies to gsd outcrosses, such as a show/working line cross, where there would be no common ancestor for 8 or more generations. by Paul Garrison on 02 January 2013 - 21:01
Hundmutter
This subject has come up with Vets and Vet friends over many years. For every mut you bring me, I can bring many of purebreds to have more health problems. My response was from the exaggerated statement.
It is funny you all you have to come up with has nothing to do with the point of "help this person" . Lead him in the right direction.
Fixing the problems with the GSD is easy. Quit breeding crap and then CULL the rest and keep only the best. But few are going to do that. Why because most of us have feelings for these animals, and there are more people then there are on this fourm breeding the Crappest good for nothing dogs they can find.
What is the single thing that ruins all breeds of dogs? The love and desire for MONEY.
Paul
This subject has come up with Vets and Vet friends over many years. For every mut you bring me, I can bring many of purebreds to have more health problems. My response was from the exaggerated statement.
It is funny you all you have to come up with has nothing to do with the point of "help this person" . Lead him in the right direction.
Fixing the problems with the GSD is easy. Quit breeding crap and then CULL the rest and keep only the best. But few are going to do that. Why because most of us have feelings for these animals, and there are more people then there are on this fourm breeding the Crappest good for nothing dogs they can find.
What is the single thing that ruins all breeds of dogs? The love and desire for MONEY.
Paul
by Paul Garrison on 02 January 2013 - 21:01
Mystere: Amen to that.
by Sunsilver on 02 January 2013 - 22:01
What is the single thing that ruins all breeds of dogs? The love and desire for MONEY.
I agree with you 100% there, Paul.
You have made some incorrect assumptions about my female's sire. I had nothing to do with his breeding, and knowing what I do now about how inbred the showlines are, I would not buy from these lines again. There is far, far too much backmassing on dogs like Palme and Uran.
The puppy I bought is a totall outcross, however, (American SL x German SL) and at 6 years is healthy except for some mild allergies and chronically itchy ears. Her dad suffers from this, too. He is now 9, and quite healthy except for some mild arthritis.
My female also has a mildlly dysplastic hip, and has been spayed.
I am not going to retract what I said about this dog's breeding, though I admit I could have worded it better. What I meant was no knowledgeable person does this sort of breeding The proof of breedworthiness for the GSD has always been working titles. All right, an untitled dog may be a great dog, but how do you know? It also could be a fear biter, or a genetic spook. Without titles, you are essentially just breeding pets. And that is creating dogs that are much more likely to wind up in the shelter.
As for the OP's dog, it may be perfectly capable of doing a Sch 1, or getting its FH, or a title under AKC such as CD, TD, etc. But he does not have a good pedigree, and should not be considered breedworthy.
Maybe, if he gets some titles to his name and has his hips and elbows done, okay. But even then, what is he going to produce? What is back there that's going to 'improve the breed'?
I agree with you 100% there, Paul.
You have made some incorrect assumptions about my female's sire. I had nothing to do with his breeding, and knowing what I do now about how inbred the showlines are, I would not buy from these lines again. There is far, far too much backmassing on dogs like Palme and Uran.
The puppy I bought is a totall outcross, however, (American SL x German SL) and at 6 years is healthy except for some mild allergies and chronically itchy ears. Her dad suffers from this, too. He is now 9, and quite healthy except for some mild arthritis.
My female also has a mildlly dysplastic hip, and has been spayed.
I am not going to retract what I said about this dog's breeding, though I admit I could have worded it better. What I meant was no knowledgeable person does this sort of breeding The proof of breedworthiness for the GSD has always been working titles. All right, an untitled dog may be a great dog, but how do you know? It also could be a fear biter, or a genetic spook. Without titles, you are essentially just breeding pets. And that is creating dogs that are much more likely to wind up in the shelter.
As for the OP's dog, it may be perfectly capable of doing a Sch 1, or getting its FH, or a title under AKC such as CD, TD, etc. But he does not have a good pedigree, and should not be considered breedworthy.
Maybe, if he gets some titles to his name and has his hips and elbows done, okay. But even then, what is he going to produce? What is back there that's going to 'improve the breed'?
by Paul Garrison on 03 January 2013 - 00:01
Sunsilver
I think you have misunderstood what I was saying. I am not downing anyones dogs. I have not ever looked at your dogs pedgree. Just reading your posts, I concluded you did not have and most likley would not want what I like in a dog. I want a dead serious no hesitation bite for real dog.
When I was learning how to train OB as a young boy I heard a dog trainer say to another man" until you haved trained 200 dogs you know nothing about dog training". So I made a deal with the dog pound that they would let me train the dogs at the pound. Well I did not OB train 200 dogs but I bet it was 75 or 80. I did it step by step out of a book. LOL
My first attempt at a protection dog my dad gave away because he bit both of the neighbor boys and the mail man. He was a collie. I made a sleeve out of a mud flap and carpet. I wanted to train dogs from the first time I saw a GSD do bite work. I was 10 or 11.
Paul
I think you have misunderstood what I was saying. I am not downing anyones dogs. I have not ever looked at your dogs pedgree. Just reading your posts, I concluded you did not have and most likley would not want what I like in a dog. I want a dead serious no hesitation bite for real dog.
When I was learning how to train OB as a young boy I heard a dog trainer say to another man" until you haved trained 200 dogs you know nothing about dog training". So I made a deal with the dog pound that they would let me train the dogs at the pound. Well I did not OB train 200 dogs but I bet it was 75 or 80. I did it step by step out of a book. LOL
My first attempt at a protection dog my dad gave away because he bit both of the neighbor boys and the mail man. He was a collie. I made a sleeve out of a mud flap and carpet. I wanted to train dogs from the first time I saw a GSD do bite work. I was 10 or 11.
Paul
by dirckprince on 03 January 2013 - 00:01
Okay so to get all this information straight from all the input that I have recieved... The only dogs that should be able to breed are those that are heavily titled and proven. Which if that was the case then all the pups of those allowed to breed wouldn't be able to breed until they have proven themselves..... In that case wouldn't the german shepherd dog have become extinct by this time??? or so outrageously priced that no one would be able to have this breed... Thank you all for the unbiased opinions. I will take it all into consideration. As far as learning from my dog I have learned a lot from them. They have taught me patience. They have also trained me. They have been able to spend hours with an autistic boy listening to him talk to them, they have endured the rembuctioness of having small children around, they also have protected the livestock, (chickens and rabbits included). Having been through all this I thought that a new game (challenge) would be to start training in schutzhund. After recieving the input I guess I will keep my pets just as they are and not try to enter the stuck up world of purebred german shepherds...Thanks again.
by susie on 03 January 2013 - 00:01
Dirck: After recieving the input I guess I will keep my pets just as they are and not try to enter the stuck up world of purebred german shepherds...Thanks again
This is the wrong conclusion.
I´m sure your dog and you will love training . Give´m a chance to proof us wrong.
The only dogs that should be able to breed are those that are heavily titled and proven. Which if that was the case then all the pups of those allowed to breed wouldn't be able to breed until they have proven themselves..... In that case wouldn't the german shepherd dog have become extinct by this time??? or so outrageously priced that no one would be able to have this breed...
I´m coming from Germany. In our country every single German Shepherd has to achieve
BH
AD
Showrating
Schutzhundrating
Breed survey
HD/ED
DNA
including ALL ancestors
otherwise no pedigrees. In 2012 17000 puppies were born. all of them out of titled parents. The dogs are sold for 600-1000 Euro. A breeder doesn´t make money out of puppies.
First of all people like to participate in Sport or on Shows. Most of the breeders are trainers for decades. They know their stock
And that´s the point: At first you need to train, afterwards you may breed.
This is the wrong conclusion.
I´m sure your dog and you will love training . Give´m a chance to proof us wrong.
The only dogs that should be able to breed are those that are heavily titled and proven. Which if that was the case then all the pups of those allowed to breed wouldn't be able to breed until they have proven themselves..... In that case wouldn't the german shepherd dog have become extinct by this time??? or so outrageously priced that no one would be able to have this breed...
I´m coming from Germany. In our country every single German Shepherd has to achieve
BH
AD
Showrating
Schutzhundrating
Breed survey
HD/ED
DNA
including ALL ancestors
otherwise no pedigrees. In 2012 17000 puppies were born. all of them out of titled parents. The dogs are sold for 600-1000 Euro. A breeder doesn´t make money out of puppies.
First of all people like to participate in Sport or on Shows. Most of the breeders are trainers for decades. They know their stock
And that´s the point: At first you need to train, afterwards you may breed.
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