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by Abby Normal on 21 July 2011 - 22:07
LOL MissBeeb I KNOW.....my reply was (intended) to be in the same vein :)
by hutch on 21 July 2011 - 22:07
Gosh, I have been so busy looking after the family, working full time, feeding, exercising, training, showing and working my dogs, running a show and koerung.....that I plain ran out of time to pontificate from my ivory tower, how remiss of me. 
However, as some of the slightly off topic points raised / passed on in this thread and by e-mail by David relate to Midland Region GSD Group, I thought I would just put our view on them.
Puppy Judging
OK, the puppy judging did go on rather a long time. We did encourage the judge to keep things moving but there is a fine line between efficient stewarding and being over-powering. The judge is, after all, in charge.
Long Coats and Breed Surveys
The facts about the placings of the 2 second place adult long coats have become somewhat lost and the judges' reasoning has been mis-interpreted. The owners were invited to talk with the judge after the show so that he could clarify the situation but I do not think that they took him up on this offer.
Long Coat Classes "inter-mingled" with normal coats.
It is a clear objective of the WUSV/GSDL - BRG to facilitate exhibitors who want to obtain the qualifications necessary to enter a Koerung. Long Coats are now able to participate in Koerungs and so it was felt that they need an opportunity to obtain a show grade under an sv judge. The current number of long coat entries would not make it viable to incur the expense of an sv judge and hence the decision to "inter-mingle" - as is the case at the Dutch Sieger this year and, I understand, many shows on the continent. I know of at least 1 long coat in this country who is close to having all the necessary qualifications to take Koerung and now he has an sv show grade without having to go overseas.
There is a standing item on the WUSV/GSDL-BRG agenda to review what went well and not so well at regional events with the aim of learning from experience. Constructive criticism is welcomed - especially from those who actually entered and / or attended the events.
Shirley
However, as some of the slightly off topic points raised / passed on in this thread and by e-mail by David relate to Midland Region GSD Group, I thought I would just put our view on them.
Puppy Judging
OK, the puppy judging did go on rather a long time. We did encourage the judge to keep things moving but there is a fine line between efficient stewarding and being over-powering. The judge is, after all, in charge.
Long Coats and Breed Surveys
The facts about the placings of the 2 second place adult long coats have become somewhat lost and the judges' reasoning has been mis-interpreted. The owners were invited to talk with the judge after the show so that he could clarify the situation but I do not think that they took him up on this offer.
Long Coat Classes "inter-mingled" with normal coats.
It is a clear objective of the WUSV/GSDL - BRG to facilitate exhibitors who want to obtain the qualifications necessary to enter a Koerung. Long Coats are now able to participate in Koerungs and so it was felt that they need an opportunity to obtain a show grade under an sv judge. The current number of long coat entries would not make it viable to incur the expense of an sv judge and hence the decision to "inter-mingle" - as is the case at the Dutch Sieger this year and, I understand, many shows on the continent. I know of at least 1 long coat in this country who is close to having all the necessary qualifications to take Koerung and now he has an sv show grade without having to go overseas.
There is a standing item on the WUSV/GSDL-BRG agenda to review what went well and not so well at regional events with the aim of learning from experience. Constructive criticism is welcomed - especially from those who actually entered and / or attended the events.
Shirley
by Videx on 24 July 2011 - 07:07
THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAIL
I am used to efforts by some to offer glib explanations without much "DETAIL", simply because more "DETAIL" may render the proffered explanations "null and void"
Puppy Judging: Shirley "a little forethought saves a lot of problems" - A clear statement in the Catalogue that all Puppy Judging would be finalised by a set time (say 11am) - if the Judge had not finished Judging the Puppy classes by 11am, then the Puppy Judging would continue in another Ring (provided for such a situation). The Puppy Classes Judge would then be aware that he/she has a reasonable time to Judge the entry for the Puppy Classes and if he/she overshot the allocated time they would be moved to another adequate ring - provided.
It would then also state in the Catalogue that judging of classes for dogs aged 12 months and over would commence at 11am.
Long Coats and Breed Surveys:
The debacle concerned an exhibitor who entered his long coat male which had not been breed surveyed (he understood the the ENTRY requirements did NOT require a Breed Survey) and the Judge placed him in first position and then put the second dog over his dog, into first place, with the clear explanation that the dog had a breed survey. Therefore the owner of the dog that LOST first place felt GENUINELY aggrieved, simply because the Judge had NOT judged the class to the ENTRY CRITERIA. Perhaps you may comment on this DETAIL.
Long Coat Classes "inter-mingled" with normal coats:
The British Sieger Event will now have LONG COAT Classes slotted in amongst the NORMAL COAT classes, "simply because a LONG COAT dog owner wants its SV Grade"???????
The name of the Long Coat Dog and its owner might be quite revealing!
There are Regional Events where such a LONG COAT DOG could obtain its "SV GRADE" - which would then avoid the need to "slot the long coats classes at the British Sieger Event.
I am informed that some "LONG COAT" owners did NOT want to be Judged in a separate ring or by a different Judge at the British Sieger Event. Tough Shit! - the Long Coats have only just been recognised for showing by the GSDL/WUSV System, they should appreciate that "Rome was not built in a day" and they need to understand that it will take some time, maybe years to make the progress in THEIR show scene that they may desire. To most GSD folk it now appears that the Tail (Long Coats) is wagging the Dog (normal coats)
It should also be remembered that Kennel Club Shows do NOT facilitate Long Coat GSD classes, and if entered they would be very likely placed at the rear.
As I have stated: "THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAIL"
by hutch on 24 July 2011 - 12:07
Hi Dave,
It was good to see you at the show yesterday - I am sure your observations will be discussed with more conviction knowing they are first hand.
I have lots of thoughts about things which can be done to improve Regional shows as do the rest of the group members and we are taking in all of the constructive criticism and will discuss it at our next meeting when we start to plan the next events.
Long Coats and Breed Surveys.
I am not going to go into specific detail on a public forum as the owner doesn't to my knowledge frequent the PDB (sensible chap!). I did discuss the detail with Rhoda yesterday and I remian of the opinion that the owner was mis-informed and had he took up the judge's offer to discuss the matter he may not have felt aggrieved. Some information that is publicly availble on this matter is this though......
LCAD 1st was graded V with an sv grading card. 2nd was graded Very Good with a League grading card as he did not have a breed survey.
LCAB 1st was graded V with an sv grading card. 2nd was graded Excellent with a League grading card as she did not have a bred survey.
Therefore, the judge did not have a problem giving an excelent grading to a bitch that didn't have a breed survey as that was within the rules but don't think h would ever put an animal that he considers to be very good grade above an animal he considers to be excellent grading - irrespective of breed survey requirements. The owner's handler mis-informed him.
Long Coat classes
It was decided to have the sv judges at Regional Shows judging long coats so that they could obtain an sv grading because they could possibly, in future, do a Koerung. No specific dog was in mind. I am pretty sure there will not be many in this country for a long time that will follow this through. There is one that could do it in the near future that I know of. Conbhairean Lauser is close to obtaining all the necessary qualifications and now has his sv show grade at a Regional Show. I was not suggesting that is why long coat classes were scheduled as they are at the British Sieger - you will have to ask others about that as I was not on the Working Party at the time.
Personally, I have been very enthusiastic about regional event and offering an alternative to KC shows which promotes and requires health testing of the dog as well as the good conformation but I have to say that the way in which some people, especially David, are going about raising their observations is making me feel pretty dis-heartened. I am not by nature a quitter but I do wonder if it is worth the bother - do exhibitors really want an alternative?
Shirley
It was good to see you at the show yesterday - I am sure your observations will be discussed with more conviction knowing they are first hand.
I have lots of thoughts about things which can be done to improve Regional shows as do the rest of the group members and we are taking in all of the constructive criticism and will discuss it at our next meeting when we start to plan the next events.
Long Coats and Breed Surveys.
I am not going to go into specific detail on a public forum as the owner doesn't to my knowledge frequent the PDB (sensible chap!). I did discuss the detail with Rhoda yesterday and I remian of the opinion that the owner was mis-informed and had he took up the judge's offer to discuss the matter he may not have felt aggrieved. Some information that is publicly availble on this matter is this though......
LCAD 1st was graded V with an sv grading card. 2nd was graded Very Good with a League grading card as he did not have a breed survey.
LCAB 1st was graded V with an sv grading card. 2nd was graded Excellent with a League grading card as she did not have a bred survey.
Therefore, the judge did not have a problem giving an excelent grading to a bitch that didn't have a breed survey as that was within the rules but don't think h would ever put an animal that he considers to be very good grade above an animal he considers to be excellent grading - irrespective of breed survey requirements. The owner's handler mis-informed him.
Long Coat classes
It was decided to have the sv judges at Regional Shows judging long coats so that they could obtain an sv grading because they could possibly, in future, do a Koerung. No specific dog was in mind. I am pretty sure there will not be many in this country for a long time that will follow this through. There is one that could do it in the near future that I know of. Conbhairean Lauser is close to obtaining all the necessary qualifications and now has his sv show grade at a Regional Show. I was not suggesting that is why long coat classes were scheduled as they are at the British Sieger - you will have to ask others about that as I was not on the Working Party at the time.
Personally, I have been very enthusiastic about regional event and offering an alternative to KC shows which promotes and requires health testing of the dog as well as the good conformation but I have to say that the way in which some people, especially David, are going about raising their observations is making me feel pretty dis-heartened. I am not by nature a quitter but I do wonder if it is worth the bother - do exhibitors really want an alternative?
Shirley
by Videx on 24 July 2011 - 12:07
Re: the matter of: Long Coats and Breed Surveys:
I am now led to believe this issue is somewhat different than what I had been informed and therefore what I have stated above. I would wish to read a full and accurate comment regarding this matter posted on here. I am also very concerned about "Hip X-ray" and therefore Hip Scores/Grades 'currently' NOT being required for Long Coats in their ADULT Classes. Precisely WHO made this decision?
The whole Regional Event System is UNDERPINNED by the Health Requirements!
I would dearly like to only put forward "constructive comments & ideas" for the Regional Events & British Sieger Event, HOWEVER what is a prerequisite and an absolutely essential requirement is for the relevant committees to STOP making whimsical changes/additions/omissions and start "thoroughly thinking ALL matters through" VERY carefully.
We cannot continue damaging the future prospects of our WUSV/GSDL System, such an opportunity has been awaited for far too many years for it to be ravaged by so many easily avoidable mistakes. Mistakes which are and will cause disappointments, frustration and lose support.
To those who have stated that I have a nerve criticising Regional Events as I have never organised an Event, - I would reply by stating "I do NOT have to own or run a restaurant to tell anybody if the food or service in a restaurant is unacceptable," and poor restaurants usually go out of business.
I am now led to believe this issue is somewhat different than what I had been informed and therefore what I have stated above. I would wish to read a full and accurate comment regarding this matter posted on here. I am also very concerned about "Hip X-ray" and therefore Hip Scores/Grades 'currently' NOT being required for Long Coats in their ADULT Classes. Precisely WHO made this decision?
The whole Regional Event System is UNDERPINNED by the Health Requirements!
I would dearly like to only put forward "constructive comments & ideas" for the Regional Events & British Sieger Event, HOWEVER what is a prerequisite and an absolutely essential requirement is for the relevant committees to STOP making whimsical changes/additions/omissions and start "thoroughly thinking ALL matters through" VERY carefully.
We cannot continue damaging the future prospects of our WUSV/GSDL System, such an opportunity has been awaited for far too many years for it to be ravaged by so many easily avoidable mistakes. Mistakes which are and will cause disappointments, frustration and lose support.
To those who have stated that I have a nerve criticising Regional Events as I have never organised an Event, - I would reply by stating "I do NOT have to own or run a restaurant to tell anybody if the food or service in a restaurant is unacceptable," and poor restaurants usually go out of business.
by CAROL on 24 July 2011 - 13:07
I would like to make a comment on Davids original post regarding longcoats and breed surveys as I was directly involved with this and was standing right next to the judge when he made his comments (I was taking photo's of all the winners at the show). I hear that all sorts of misinformations are being spread around different clubs and shows so the true facts now need to be stated.
1) The dog that finish 2nd was put to the front of the class after the individuals as they were placed in NUMERICAL order for the gun test, exactly the same as all the other classes where a gun test was necessary.
2) the 2 dogs in the class were then placed into position 1st Conbhairean Lauser 2nd Parhilieon v Kaiser.
3) the class was judged in the normal manner with the dogs finishing in the above order.
4) The judge gave verbal critiques on both dogs and graded the first dog V1 and the 2nd dog SG1. He mentioned the fact that the first dog had a breed survey and commented that if he had 2 dogs of absolute equal merit he would always place the one with a breed survey above the other HOWEVER that is not the case with these 2 dogs. He clearly stated that and this can be seen by the grading given.
After the show I asked him to clarify his final statement because a lot of fuss was being made by the owner of the 2nd dog because he had clearly been misinformed as to what had been said. The judge stated quite catagorically to me that the first dog was absolutely the better dog with or without a breed survey and the positions and gradings would have been the same with or without breed survey. I am sorry if this offends the owner of the 2nd placed dog but this was the opinion of the SV judge at this show, unfortunately he was either wrongly informed by his handler or his handler misunderstood what the judge said.
From January 2012 ALL adult longcoats will require a breed survey for the regional shows and I believe as per the schedule that they will need this for the British Sieger this year.
It must be remembered that the British Sieger is run by the WUSV working party made up of representatives of the GSDL, BAGSD and the Breed Council and is nothing to do with the WUSV GSDL BRG who run the Regional events although hopefully we are all working towards the same aims.
I hope I have explained myself in a clear manner, this whole issue needs to be put to bed now and I hope that the owner of the 2nd placed dog has much fun and success with his dog at future show.
Carol Eastwood
1) The dog that finish 2nd was put to the front of the class after the individuals as they were placed in NUMERICAL order for the gun test, exactly the same as all the other classes where a gun test was necessary.
2) the 2 dogs in the class were then placed into position 1st Conbhairean Lauser 2nd Parhilieon v Kaiser.
3) the class was judged in the normal manner with the dogs finishing in the above order.
4) The judge gave verbal critiques on both dogs and graded the first dog V1 and the 2nd dog SG1. He mentioned the fact that the first dog had a breed survey and commented that if he had 2 dogs of absolute equal merit he would always place the one with a breed survey above the other HOWEVER that is not the case with these 2 dogs. He clearly stated that and this can be seen by the grading given.
After the show I asked him to clarify his final statement because a lot of fuss was being made by the owner of the 2nd dog because he had clearly been misinformed as to what had been said. The judge stated quite catagorically to me that the first dog was absolutely the better dog with or without a breed survey and the positions and gradings would have been the same with or without breed survey. I am sorry if this offends the owner of the 2nd placed dog but this was the opinion of the SV judge at this show, unfortunately he was either wrongly informed by his handler or his handler misunderstood what the judge said.
From January 2012 ALL adult longcoats will require a breed survey for the regional shows and I believe as per the schedule that they will need this for the British Sieger this year.
It must be remembered that the British Sieger is run by the WUSV working party made up of representatives of the GSDL, BAGSD and the Breed Council and is nothing to do with the WUSV GSDL BRG who run the Regional events although hopefully we are all working towards the same aims.
I hope I have explained myself in a clear manner, this whole issue needs to be put to bed now and I hope that the owner of the 2nd placed dog has much fun and success with his dog at future show.
Carol Eastwood
by yorkjason on 24 July 2011 - 13:07
I read the devil videx post , reads good , then I read hutch's post that also reads good and puts a very different view on the situation. I dont get it , videx and hutch are on the same side right ?, videx you are so knowing about these shows and procedures why do you sit in wait to criticise if some slight hiccups arise instead of helping beforehand to ensure these shows continue to succeed ?. The KC reading your posts videx, might get the idea you are sliding your way back to them !.
by matt 90 on 24 July 2011 - 18:07
The second dog was graded Ex not Sg (from Leauge website)
Adult Long Coat Male
V1 MacDonald/GreerCONBHAIREAN LAUSER (Nando vom Gollerweiher x CH Conbhairean Alexis)
5.5 years, black & gold, over medium size, strong, very stretched, very good head, high wither, good top and underline, croup is slightly steep, very good hindquarter angulation, very good front angulation, pasterns should be firmer, stands straight in front, correct coming and going, very good movement.
2 (EX)Ali PARHILEON KAISER (Lardo Vom Stieglerhof x Lauri vom Huhnegrab)
2 years, black & gold, medium size, medium strong, good proportions, high wither, slightly short croup, good hindquarter angulation, upper arm should be slightly longer, good chest proportions, stands straight in front, correct coming and going, good movement.
Adult Long Coat Male
V1 MacDonald/GreerCONBHAIREAN LAUSER (Nando vom Gollerweiher x CH Conbhairean Alexis)
5.5 years, black & gold, over medium size, strong, very stretched, very good head, high wither, good top and underline, croup is slightly steep, very good hindquarter angulation, very good front angulation, pasterns should be firmer, stands straight in front, correct coming and going, very good movement.
2 (EX)Ali PARHILEON KAISER (Lardo Vom Stieglerhof x Lauri vom Huhnegrab)
2 years, black & gold, medium size, medium strong, good proportions, high wither, slightly short croup, good hindquarter angulation, upper arm should be slightly longer, good chest proportions, stands straight in front, correct coming and going, good movement.
by Videx on 24 July 2011 - 18:07
yorkjason: (anonymous?) Perhaps you may think very carefully about what is written: specifically read the italics - I wanted this clarified - I then asked Carol (phone call) to come on here and clarify it fully which she has done -
Long Coats and Breed Surveys:
The debacle concerned an exhibitor who entered his long coat male which had not been breed surveyed (he understood the the ENTRY requirements did NOT require a Breed Survey) and the Judge placed him in first position and then put the second dog over his dog, into first place, with the clear explanation that the dog had a breed survey. Therefore the owner of the dog that LOST first place felt GENUINELY aggrieved, simply because the Judge had NOT judged the class to the ENTRY CRITERIA. Perhaps you may comment on this DETAIL.
God forbid that ANYONE could think, even for a split second, that I would slide back to the KC. - haven't you READ my many vitriolic criticisms of the Kennel Club over several YEARS?
What planet have you been on?
Long Coats and Breed Surveys:
The debacle concerned an exhibitor who entered his long coat male which had not been breed surveyed (he understood the the ENTRY requirements did NOT require a Breed Survey) and the Judge placed him in first position and then put the second dog over his dog, into first place, with the clear explanation that the dog had a breed survey. Therefore the owner of the dog that LOST first place felt GENUINELY aggrieved, simply because the Judge had NOT judged the class to the ENTRY CRITERIA. Perhaps you may comment on this DETAIL.
God forbid that ANYONE could think, even for a split second, that I would slide back to the KC. - haven't you READ my many vitriolic criticisms of the Kennel Club over several YEARS?
What planet have you been on?
by Abby Normal on 24 July 2011 - 18:07
Carol says the placing wasn't to do with the fact the first dog had a breed survey, Videx you are still saying it was because it had a breed survey. Confusion reigns. IF the judge placed the dog higher because of the breed survey, then I think the owner of the dog placed 2nd has a valid point if the judge was not judging according to the entry requirements which were, as I understood it , that for 2011 a breed survey was NOT required.
BTW Videx, if it is true that a hip score was not required for LC's I am truly flabbergasted. I can so NO justification for such a breach of health standards, under ANY circumstances. Frankly, IMO this is a much bigger issue than the LC placings! No dog, absolutely NO dog should be able to compete at a regional event without proper health grades.
I am still speechless....
BTW Videx, if it is true that a hip score was not required for LC's I am truly flabbergasted. I can so NO justification for such a breach of health standards, under ANY circumstances. Frankly, IMO this is a much bigger issue than the LC placings! No dog, absolutely NO dog should be able to compete at a regional event without proper health grades.
I am still speechless....
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