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by Abby Normal on 24 February 2011 - 13:02
Bazza
I agree with the previous posts from Videx and SueB too. I said earlier on that the KCGC should be replaced with an alternative, devised by the group, since it is a mismatch with the WUSV/GSDL ethos. Also, not least because it is such a basic level test as to be worthless, and is IMO a prime example of setting the bar too low.
No need to for you to repeat someone else's opinions/posts, I wondered if you might have some of your own.
One of my questions was about the breed survey including/not including a working test. What do you think? Should breedworthiness include working ability?
I agree with the previous posts from Videx and SueB too. I said earlier on that the KCGC should be replaced with an alternative, devised by the group, since it is a mismatch with the WUSV/GSDL ethos. Also, not least because it is such a basic level test as to be worthless, and is IMO a prime example of setting the bar too low.
No need to for you to repeat someone else's opinions/posts, I wondered if you might have some of your own.
One of my questions was about the breed survey including/not including a working test. What do you think? Should breedworthiness include working ability?
by Videx on 24 February 2011 - 13:02
my answer: EVENTUALLY!
In the meantime we must recognise the current huge benefits of the GSD Breed Survey relating to IDENTIFICATION - HEALTH SCREENING TESTS - CONFORMATION.
and we must do all in our power to maximise the number of GSD going through the Breed Survey until such time as it becomes normal practice, especially for all GSD intended for breeding.
Eventually making the GSD Breed Survey a "requirement" for all "Litter Registrations".
In the meantime we must recognise the current huge benefits of the GSD Breed Survey relating to IDENTIFICATION - HEALTH SCREENING TESTS - CONFORMATION.
and we must do all in our power to maximise the number of GSD going through the Breed Survey until such time as it becomes normal practice, especially for all GSD intended for breeding.
Eventually making the GSD Breed Survey a "requirement" for all "Litter Registrations".
by bazza on 24 February 2011 - 13:02
my answer..same as Videx EVENTUALLY. Oh! sorry, in my own words??
IN TIME!!
IN TIME!!
by Abby Normal on 24 February 2011 - 14:02
Videx
I do recognise the huge step forward, and the particularly the benefits of health testing. You can perhaps acknowledge that it is all too easy to get settled into a survey (or anything else for that matter) that does not include certain elements, and that the current level becomes and remains the norm, and it can be difficult to change/introduce. I would think you could certainly recognise that pitfall.
Currently it is not a stated objective of the regional group. I believe it should be, albeit 2 , 10 or 20 years in the future, if we are truly intending to determine breed worth not based on health and conformation alone.
Bazza: LOL
I do recognise the huge step forward, and the particularly the benefits of health testing. You can perhaps acknowledge that it is all too easy to get settled into a survey (or anything else for that matter) that does not include certain elements, and that the current level becomes and remains the norm, and it can be difficult to change/introduce. I would think you could certainly recognise that pitfall.
Currently it is not a stated objective of the regional group. I believe it should be, albeit 2 , 10 or 20 years in the future, if we are truly intending to determine breed worth not based on health and conformation alone.
Bazza: LOL
by Sue B on 24 February 2011 - 14:02
Abby, You are wrong the British Breed Survey is stated in the Objectives as the
minimum requirement for entry into the BRG for animals of 2yrs and over.,
See Aims and Objectives below (imparticular highlighted objective), that form
part of the WUSV-BRG Rules and Regulations.
Sue B
===========================================================================
WUSV BRITISH REGIONAL GROUP RULES & REGULATIONS - Aims and Objectives
Aims
• To promote the health and welfare of the German Shepherd Dog
• To provide a medium for members to exchange views and information
• To organise and arrange events for the GSD based on WUSV rules
• To provide an educational base for sharing information on:-
o WUSV rules and regulations
o Mandatory Health Issues
o Working qualifications
• To promote the GSD as per the WUSV standard
• To assist members in obtaining qualifications based on the WUSV system
o BH
o AD
o Schutzhund 1, 2 & 3
o Koerung
o Koerung (Lebenzeit/life)
• To work alongside the GSD League of Great Britain as an affiliated organization.
Objectives
To promote a sound, healthy German Shepherd Dog, conforming to the breed standard and which
is capable of achieving the minimum required to obtain a British Breed Survey pass.
A calendar of Regional Events to be posted on the GSDL website, where we aim to achieve giving
at least one year’s notice regarding forthcoming events.
To encourage exhibitors to take part there will be a Regional Group League Table, where the following
points will be counted to produce a ‘Top Awards’ table for that year.
Puppy to Adult Classes 3 pts for 1st
2 pts for 2nd
1 pt for 3rd
Working Class 5 pts for V1
4 pts for V2
3 pts for V3
Working Class (British Sieger Show only) 7 pts for VA1
6 pts for all subsequent VA’s
(then as per working class above)
===========================================================================
minimum requirement for entry into the BRG for animals of 2yrs and over.,
See Aims and Objectives below (imparticular highlighted objective), that form
part of the WUSV-BRG Rules and Regulations.
Sue B
===========================================================================
WUSV BRITISH REGIONAL GROUP RULES & REGULATIONS - Aims and Objectives
Aims
• To promote the health and welfare of the German Shepherd Dog
• To provide a medium for members to exchange views and information
• To organise and arrange events for the GSD based on WUSV rules
• To provide an educational base for sharing information on:-
o WUSV rules and regulations
o Mandatory Health Issues
o Working qualifications
• To promote the GSD as per the WUSV standard
• To assist members in obtaining qualifications based on the WUSV system
o BH
o AD
o Schutzhund 1, 2 & 3
o Koerung
o Koerung (Lebenzeit/life)
• To work alongside the GSD League of Great Britain as an affiliated organization.
Objectives
To promote a sound, healthy German Shepherd Dog, conforming to the breed standard and which
is capable of achieving the minimum required to obtain a British Breed Survey pass.
A calendar of Regional Events to be posted on the GSDL website, where we aim to achieve giving
at least one year’s notice regarding forthcoming events.
To encourage exhibitors to take part there will be a Regional Group League Table, where the following
points will be counted to produce a ‘Top Awards’ table for that year.
Puppy to Adult Classes 3 pts for 1st
2 pts for 2nd
1 pt for 3rd
Working Class 5 pts for V1
4 pts for V2
3 pts for V3
Working Class (British Sieger Show only) 7 pts for VA1
6 pts for all subsequent VA’s
(then as per working class above)
===========================================================================
by singer on 24 February 2011 - 23:02
Breed Survey is a voluntary scheme so why put your dog through if you don’t need to, you have to give people an incentive to use the scheme, which should be at shows only dogs with a Breed Survey will be able to be graded excellent and regardless of conformation will be positioned ahead of unsurveyed dogs
When people have something to gain from having their dogs surveyed then they will have them done in numbers
Identification is the cornerstone of Breed Survey
Singer
When people have something to gain from having their dogs surveyed then they will have them done in numbers
Identification is the cornerstone of Breed Survey
Singer
by Videx on 25 February 2011 - 11:02
I have absolutely no doubt that the future for our GSD here in the UK will be best served by the GSDL/WUSV Regional Group. I sincerely hope the vast majority of GSD owners will join the GSD League of Great Britain and fully support in every way possible the GSDL/WUSV Regional Events and our British Sieger.
I hope the genuinely exciting opportunities which the GSDL/WUSV Regional Group have to offer are recognised and fully exploited by our breed. These opportunities can only be fully developed and realised with the overwhelming support of those involved in our breed. We should all realise that our breed will only thrive and prosper with dynamic and progressive leadership, The GSDL/WUSV offer that leadership, and they have the fullest support from the SV and WUSV in their endeavors. The value and importance of this support should not be underestimated.
I hope the genuinely exciting opportunities which the GSDL/WUSV Regional Group have to offer are recognised and fully exploited by our breed. These opportunities can only be fully developed and realised with the overwhelming support of those involved in our breed. We should all realise that our breed will only thrive and prosper with dynamic and progressive leadership, The GSDL/WUSV offer that leadership, and they have the fullest support from the SV and WUSV in their endeavors. The value and importance of this support should not be underestimated.
by Abby Normal on 25 February 2011 - 11:02
Sue
No, I think you misunderstand me. The objective of all dogs ultimately having to pass a working test as part of the breed survey, as we have been discussing here. BTW, it is not a criticism but an observation.
When I re-checked it yesterday, the section you have highlighted actually said:
To promote a sound, healthy German Shepherd Dog, conforming to the breed standard and which is capable of achieving a minimum qualification of BH.
In any case, even with the changes, 'capable of achieving a minimum breed survey pass', means obtaining a pass in the survey as it stands now, which doesn't currently contain any working test.
My observation is that it doesn't state any future objective concerning the introduction of a working test as part of the breed survey in the future.
No, I think you misunderstand me. The objective of all dogs ultimately having to pass a working test as part of the breed survey, as we have been discussing here. BTW, it is not a criticism but an observation.
When I re-checked it yesterday, the section you have highlighted actually said:
To promote a sound, healthy German Shepherd Dog, conforming to the breed standard and which is capable of achieving a minimum qualification of BH.
In any case, even with the changes, 'capable of achieving a minimum breed survey pass', means obtaining a pass in the survey as it stands now, which doesn't currently contain any working test.
My observation is that it doesn't state any future objective concerning the introduction of a working test as part of the breed survey in the future.
by Sue B on 25 February 2011 - 13:02
Abby
I think we appear to be at cross purposes here and therefore have a completely different perspective when looking at things.
Where I SAY :- "To promote a sound, healthy German Shepherd Dog, conforming to the breed standard and which is capable of achieving the minimum required to obtain a British Breed Survey pass."
With the FOCUS on a 'Minimum' requirement of a British Breed Survey pass.
You SAY;- " The objective of all dogs ultimately having to pass a working test as part of the breed survey, " The focus being the ULTIMATE.
Upon reading the list of Aims and Objectives above, it should become evident that the AIMS outline the BRG's ULTIMATE objective but we are afterall BRITISH and not everyone wants to train their dog in the Protection Phase (Bite work) and I for one absolutely support those who dont and their rights not to have to have their dogs trained in Sch in order to compete at WUSV type events in this country.
As for the Breed Survey, unfortunately as it stands at the moment it is in the hands of the Breed Council,
my personal view that it would now be best served back in the hands of the GSD League as it used to be years ago before the Breed Council ever existed is just my opinion and therefore totally irrelevent at this time. However, the fact that current Breed Surveys are controlled by the Breed Council is somewhat of an ironic stumbling block when one considers the fact that the BC is a KC recognised body but as such the KC do not recognise the BC Survey, whilst the WUSV-BRGroup neither a KC or BC recognised body totally emcompasses the Breed Survey as part of its Objectives towards Breed Health and demands it be the MINIMUM requirement for entry at their events.
The further irony of this is that the BC Officers do all in their power to belittle the WUSV-BRG movement, along with its member Clubs/Groups!! So much for the GSD Breed Council in this country and their views on Breed Health and Welfare and the promotion of Healthy Shepherds at Dog Show events. One cannot help but shake ones head at the hipocracy of it all.
So I implore you Abby to look for the Positive not the Negative. Give people something to aim for that is within their grasp and you create a Positive environment, a new venture needs to ensure it embraces as many people as it can. Try to start a new venture using the Ultimate as you have suggested and you create a negative response, embracing very few.
Again, thats just my opinion, for what its worth.
Regards
Sue
Sue b
I think we appear to be at cross purposes here and therefore have a completely different perspective when looking at things.
Where I SAY :- "To promote a sound, healthy German Shepherd Dog, conforming to the breed standard and which is capable of achieving the minimum required to obtain a British Breed Survey pass."
With the FOCUS on a 'Minimum' requirement of a British Breed Survey pass.
You SAY;- " The objective of all dogs ultimately having to pass a working test as part of the breed survey, " The focus being the ULTIMATE.
Upon reading the list of Aims and Objectives above, it should become evident that the AIMS outline the BRG's ULTIMATE objective but we are afterall BRITISH and not everyone wants to train their dog in the Protection Phase (Bite work) and I for one absolutely support those who dont and their rights not to have to have their dogs trained in Sch in order to compete at WUSV type events in this country.
As for the Breed Survey, unfortunately as it stands at the moment it is in the hands of the Breed Council,
my personal view that it would now be best served back in the hands of the GSD League as it used to be years ago before the Breed Council ever existed is just my opinion and therefore totally irrelevent at this time. However, the fact that current Breed Surveys are controlled by the Breed Council is somewhat of an ironic stumbling block when one considers the fact that the BC is a KC recognised body but as such the KC do not recognise the BC Survey, whilst the WUSV-BRGroup neither a KC or BC recognised body totally emcompasses the Breed Survey as part of its Objectives towards Breed Health and demands it be the MINIMUM requirement for entry at their events.
The further irony of this is that the BC Officers do all in their power to belittle the WUSV-BRG movement, along with its member Clubs/Groups!! So much for the GSD Breed Council in this country and their views on Breed Health and Welfare and the promotion of Healthy Shepherds at Dog Show events. One cannot help but shake ones head at the hipocracy of it all.
So I implore you Abby to look for the Positive not the Negative. Give people something to aim for that is within their grasp and you create a Positive environment, a new venture needs to ensure it embraces as many people as it can. Try to start a new venture using the Ultimate as you have suggested and you create a negative response, embracing very few.
Again, thats just my opinion, for what its worth.
Regards
Sue
Sue b
by Shonnag on 25 February 2011 - 13:02
Sue B, you are welcome. Sometimes the obvious gets overlooked.
GSDs registered in 2009 (10338) and 2010 (10364) according to the kennel club's own data http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/7748/Top-20.pdf . Assuming all are UK bred and an average litter number of 10 that’s over 1000 matings per year from bitches of variable standards.
The group has admirable aims but folk (breeders and buyers) may not even know it exists, if regional shows are for adult dogs that have been surveyed then may I suggest that the group considers how information is provided to Jo Public.
Shonnag
GSDs registered in 2009 (10338) and 2010 (10364) according to the kennel club's own data http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/7748/Top-20.pdf . Assuming all are UK bred and an average litter number of 10 that’s over 1000 matings per year from bitches of variable standards.
The group has admirable aims but folk (breeders and buyers) may not even know it exists, if regional shows are for adult dogs that have been surveyed then may I suggest that the group considers how information is provided to Jo Public.
Shonnag
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