Importance of Females in Breeding - Page 4

 OGBS...I think a few months IS shortly after import, but how is this relevant? I think saying she's a nice dog based on that is the kind of thinking that leads us to dogs only good for one purpose, to be honest. I'm not picking on you, in particular, but it's a good example; you know NOTHING about Capri, yet here you are making allegations of her quality. You have seen her in the flesh, once??? Maybe twice when you picked up some kittens??? You have met one or two of her daughters a time or two as pups, since we live in the same general metro area, and that's it! How can you even say you know enough to say it's a "disservice" to not title her further? For all you know, she could be a piss-on-herself fearbiter. But she is pretty, isn't she? 

To be blunt, and maybe put this in terms you (and I don't only mean you personally)  will accept, I don't have any interest in "setting her apart."  I am not trying to build some huge "program"; I'm just a girl w/a couple nice dogs. To those who know, or who care to find out, she speaks for herself. Get to know her. Get to know her offspring. Ask people who know her offspring well. I couldn't care less what anyone thinks about me or her or the "disservice" I'm doing to her by allowing her to live (and probably die) w/only a SchH1.  How many pups do you see me advertising on here? Could it be that someone actually cares enough about the very small number of pups they produce to use the best bitch they could find and it's not necessarily about ego, titles, or money?

I guess it could be seen as a waste that I spent all that money on her and am only planning on getting a few litters from her and letting her hang out and play w/my kid and I and romp and play in the corn fields and horse pastures. But guess what? Wasteful or not, she's my dog and I can do what I want with her. So there. <blowing raspberries> LOL  If you need to mourn this loss to the breed, you can have a funeral for Capri's very short schH career. <sigh> How sad, such potential cut short and quelched. It will be very symbolic. LOL  

Your analogy is terrible, IMO. They are usually much better. That's not the same at all. How is using successful offspring over a long period of time as a barometer for the breedworthiness of the parents the same as how we created the A.S.S.??? I think breeding single-purpose dogs is much closer to how we ended up w/the A.S.S. 

 I'm gonna go eat some brownies w/my bf and my wasted dogs;-)

So, let me get this straight, you are upset because I said you have a nice dog?
Seems strange???
Other than that, I couldn't give a rats ass what you do with Capri or any of your dogs.
A little self-inflating wouldn't you say?
If they are well taken care of that's about all anyone can really hope for.
It was a suggestion, and how is it "single purpose" when I mentioned three very different things to do with her? Like I said, I think she is a nice dog and it is a shame to not do more with her, but, that is my opinion, which I am entitled to. As to not wanting to set her apart, I seem to remember that you said you are offering something different that not everyone else has. Isn't that trying to "set her apart" from all of the "other crap being bred" out there as you so eloquently put it? A 3, or PSA title, or dock diving might just show some of that. If not, no big deal.
As for her being a fear biter, it takes about 15 seconds to figure that out. If she is now, it's environmental. You may remember you tossed me your sleeve and I spent about twenty minutes "getting to know her" after I spent 15 minutes or so doing some ob with her. Dogs aren't that tough to read.
Yes, I saw two of her pups when they were young, liked one better than the other, to each their own. I have also seen a different pup from the same litter at more than a year of age because I am friends with the owner of that dog and invited her to train with my club this past summer. She is a nice dog also. A lot of potential!
Oh crap! I forgot! I'm not supposed to say anything nice about your dogs. I'm so stupid!!!
As for the rest, I stand by my statements and analogies. (Got lot's of pm's also)

A good topic indeed............... What I see here are passionate opinions. But none the less opinions. Here we see/hear of only those that want to speak and I would think that that is only a drop in the bucket of the GSDs/owners across the world. One of my future goal is to breed and possibly to pick up a third female from someone on this PDB. In my eyes I see those who are set in their ways, passionate about how they do things. One can not be liked by everyone! Impossible. But the big picture here is not individuals but the breed of the GSD. One can ask "What is a working line GSD/" and I know that there isn't just one definition. We all know the example of "take 13 persons standing in line and tell the first person something and by the time in gets to the last person it's totally something different" IMO one doesn't have to agree with everything one person says but respect that person when they can back up what they say or have enough "positives" in the choices that they make. Already in the few months on this PDB there are inviduals who I respect to an extent, admire, would like to meet, would like to see their dogs in person and even one day possibly buy a dog from them. IMO, one of the things I don't care for in life or through history is the "translation" of facts. A person said or did something and another person put it on paper. Unfortunately that person possibly put their spin, their intrepertation along with it.  This I'm sure has been a topic before but I would think in the "old" days a "working dog" was just a dog that could do many tasks that was put before it. On the farm , in the fields, in the mountains etc. I'm not saying that a dog titled in ????? can't do anything else but in the "beginning" I think a dog wasn't determind by the titles or what papers he/she had. "Working" in my eyes meant the dog kept the predators at bay, fought when needed, killed when needed.  Protected the master and his family. Protected the livestock, herding whatever animals, protecting the land, MWDs, in the wars etc.

The females in my eyes are more important than the males. Especially if the male is not part of the pack. Each has their purpose.

 

 

Yeah opinions are good, people learn a lot about things.
Jenni I am not sure what you are referring to as my ideas about you... but oh well.

Alboe,
What you say is very true.
In this day and age, however, there are virtually no real farms left and there are way too many dogs being bred. As I have said many times, working line GSD's used to be the dirty little secret, certainly in the U.S., but, now they are like Prada purses. Everyone has to have one.
I would say that the importance of titles has increased over the years to many because there are few "real" venues for these dogs to work in anymore, and especially with the amount of dogs being bred. Just because someone aspires to train and compete and title in Schutzhund with their dog it does not mean that these dogs can not do all the other things you speak of and be great family companions and protectors. The percentage of true working dogs is very, very low.
The other problem I see is that many, many of these dogs are being bred and sold as "better dogs" to people that should probably not own any GSD (or maybe even any dog) let alone a working line GSD. This includes those with phenomenal temperament. These dogs need an outlet for their tremendous desire to be doing something. Problems occur when there is no outlet. Unfortunately, I see way too many of these dogs. Very nice post, though!

I hear you..... I have many "pet peeves" with individuals that have no clue on animals, dogs let alone GSDs. Hang out at petsmart for a few hours. But maybe that's all they know and they need help and direction. But when people who have money but no training sense (let alone dog sense) buy a whatever titled dog and then act or gleem as if they accomplished all it entailed. Saw a couple times where unfortunately the dog showed the handler who was boss.

 I have been around a long time. I have seen dogs that work really well that produce nothing. Females should be bred if you think they have qualities you like, and are a breeder. Then you can see what the female is worth. 

There will always be different opinions on what is more important. ALWAYS. To me a good stud dog is one that produces himself and his qualities no matter the bitch he is bred to. To me a good female is strong enough in the drives and has the qualities I like, and is a good mother. GOOD MOTHER is the big thing for me. I have seen my share of not so good mothers.


To me, I want to see what the breeder is producing time after time. If they all are of a certain quality, then I am not going to be concerned to much about which sex they put the most emphasis on. 

Work = everyday job where the handler relies on the dog to make a living.

Sport = hobby or passion in which the handler and dog practice and train to compete or show. 

So working line is bloodline of dogs where the majority of dogs in the pedigree were relied upon to assist the handler in making a living. 

Sport line is bloodline of dogs where majority of dogs in pedigree were trained for sport and or titled.

I got a news flash for some of you. Schut was a breed test. It was never nor is it a working venue for a dog.

Im not saying that titling a dog is not very hard work or is not a great accomplishment but I am saying that it is not a working venue for the dog. It is a small part of what a GSD should be.  It was meant to be a test thats all thats it. By placing so much emphasis on Sch (because for most people that is all that is left besides just having a pet) The breed has evolved to what we have now. I think it is a testament to the breed that they are not more screwed up than they are. The GSD changes to the wants and needs of the people no matter how frivolous. 

I dont have a problem with a dog that can move lets say cows..but if you call frezbee work, that I do have a problem with unless it is a 10 year old with her/his dog. Some people dont live on farms and expect their dogs to work the cattle.. Schutz is a venue and you can make what you want out of it. Work is work but truthfully, the dogs in the households sleep most of the day while the owners are working 8 hours shifts. 
Say Schutz is a sporty sport and the dogs are not real; make them real if you know how. Say FH is not real, then go out there and make it real.
"If I want to I find a way, the rest..excuses, excuses, excuses"

That is why some people preffer to train and some like to talk shit about training, we make it what we make it.


cheers

 The importance of a female far more important then the male... This is true for physical and mental development. We have now learned that dna itself can be changed by enviormental influences... the influences can be many many things...starting with an in uetero enviorment, physical and mental stresss= those can build positive and negative resposnes etc.

Also so very important is the prepotency of both sire and dam. I dont give a rats if the pedigree is perfect if the dogs at hand dont produce what is needed it is toilet paper. I often feel it is interesting if trainers and people could analyse the dogs without that pre conception.. you know for  fun experiments. :)...

It will be exciting in the future to see how they have proof of these influences now that the begining science has been proven.


Debi
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