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by VomMarischal on 16 March 2010 - 17:03
Heather, how many generations did you go back?
NM, I see you went 6.
NM, I see you went 6.
by gagsd4 on 16 March 2010 - 18:03
Coming into this conversation a bit late, but I did a COI on my young male. I was making a bet that with all of the Held Ritterberg (HELD 17.1875%) he would be nice, and so far I have not been let down.
see it here....http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/user_comments/603270.html
--Mary
by darylehret on 16 March 2010 - 18:03
Maybe your context is limited, regarding the subject. I didn't realize that SV papered dogs were the only ones that counted to yourself, or that this subject of inbreeding was pertaining to whether or not the SV should allow it. My opinion is, the SV already allows for close enough when registering litters of 2-3, 3-2, or on special permission a 2-2 linebreeding. Should breeders breed tighter than that? Perhaps they should be required to, once a single producer has bred over 50 litters or so, before being allowed to breed further. Just in case, so as to not entirely proliferate the genepool in similar manner to how showlines were affected. I'd say intended pet-peddlers shouldn't be allowed to breed at all. Maybe with toy-breeds and such, but not with the GSD. But yes, I do believe we're seeing some consistent trends of top performer/producers being linebred in workinglines, but most notably on particular workinglines (i.e., Troll), which lends more support to the overall theory as I would personally view it. Grant it, these aren't really close examples of linebreeding, because there aren't any, but close enough to show some very significant patterns of consistency.
by darylehret on 16 March 2010 - 18:03
This might seem a little confusing, but I produced a litter which was about 6.25% less Held, and 12.5% more Bero (4 - 4,4 on Held's son). Strong healthy lines, that would be easier to improve than many, with less fear of admitting something in that would be a setback for repairs.
by Silbersee on 16 March 2010 - 19:03
Daryl,
no, SV papered dogs are not the only ones that count to me. Otherwise I would not have bred my current litter which is out of a Czech dog (even though admittedly he is individually registered with the SV since he is owned by a German and resides in Germany). But SV regulations are the only ones that matter to me. So, any dog registered with an FCI recognized organization, titled and breed surveyed would be considered by us.
I think we really are not far removed in our opinions but can not come to a consensus here. So, can we agree that the best workingline producers are not inbred tightly? On the contrary, some are almost outcrossed. Yes, there is Fero and Askia and Timmy and Troll but continously inbreeding on them will only produce bottle necks. Just by looking at the German workingline board, I can tell you that people are really trying to avoid that. I know that you are one of the advocates for the Tiekerhook dogs and that some of them are extremely inbred (2-2) on Nick Heiligenbösch. But where are all these Tiekerhook dogs, other than with the breeder and his circle? I can't find them anywhere in Germany. and before you say that there is more to dog sports than Germany, you are right!! But where is the majority of dogs coming from which you find in workingline pedigrees? Yes, the SV tightly regulates which dogs can be used in its breeding programs. Foreign bred dogs can only be used if the DNA samples of both parents are on file with the SV. That alone is tough to do.
Chris
no, SV papered dogs are not the only ones that count to me. Otherwise I would not have bred my current litter which is out of a Czech dog (even though admittedly he is individually registered with the SV since he is owned by a German and resides in Germany). But SV regulations are the only ones that matter to me. So, any dog registered with an FCI recognized organization, titled and breed surveyed would be considered by us.
I think we really are not far removed in our opinions but can not come to a consensus here. So, can we agree that the best workingline producers are not inbred tightly? On the contrary, some are almost outcrossed. Yes, there is Fero and Askia and Timmy and Troll but continously inbreeding on them will only produce bottle necks. Just by looking at the German workingline board, I can tell you that people are really trying to avoid that. I know that you are one of the advocates for the Tiekerhook dogs and that some of them are extremely inbred (2-2) on Nick Heiligenbösch. But where are all these Tiekerhook dogs, other than with the breeder and his circle? I can't find them anywhere in Germany. and before you say that there is more to dog sports than Germany, you are right!! But where is the majority of dogs coming from which you find in workingline pedigrees? Yes, the SV tightly regulates which dogs can be used in its breeding programs. Foreign bred dogs can only be used if the DNA samples of both parents are on file with the SV. That alone is tough to do.
Chris
by GSDXephyr on 16 March 2010 - 20:03
Yeah, I only went to 6 generations, was in a hurry to try it and see if it worked right the way I was typing it up.
The only question I had was entering the same line more than once in the list when a dog showed up more than once in the pedigree. Does it already figure that out or are you supposed to list it every time is shows up. Wasn't sure about that since I don't know how the calculations work...
Heather
The only question I had was entering the same line more than once in the list when a dog showed up more than once in the pedigree. Does it already figure that out or are you supposed to list it every time is shows up. Wasn't sure about that since I don't know how the calculations work...
Heather
by GSDXephyr on 16 March 2010 - 20:03
I guess I could test that by deleting the multiples and running it again and seeing if the numbers change...
by Jeff Oehlsen on 17 March 2010 - 03:03
Quote: Jeff,
I could only accept that idea of "breeding really stinking tight" (to quote you lol) if you are willing to keep all puppies, cull if necessary and/or spay/neuter the ones which need to be placed else there. Just sit back for a moment and think about this realistically: If more breeders would do the same and sell or give these puppies away it could be disastrous for the breed in general.
Of course you cull. I do not see how it would be all that bad if they started producing better litters with higher numbers of dogs that will do the work. THat is really tough to watch some guy who paid big money to watch his dog fall on his face at the training club.
I don't sell pups for 2500 dollars either. The breed is not doing real well as it is, so I don't see it as being any more of a disaster that already exists. If you take away the monetary value of a pup, then it is interesting how many of the trash breeders go away. People live very comfortable lives off of 2500 dollar pups. THAT is the hardest thing to change, but that is a different subject.
I have seen pups for sale from 1500 to 2500. No way that you could convince me that a pup is worth that much, not in todays economy, or any economy. Yet people charge this much, and that alone perpetuates irresponsible breeding. That is another discussion for sure.
I could only accept that idea of "breeding really stinking tight" (to quote you lol) if you are willing to keep all puppies, cull if necessary and/or spay/neuter the ones which need to be placed else there. Just sit back for a moment and think about this realistically: If more breeders would do the same and sell or give these puppies away it could be disastrous for the breed in general.
Of course you cull. I do not see how it would be all that bad if they started producing better litters with higher numbers of dogs that will do the work. THat is really tough to watch some guy who paid big money to watch his dog fall on his face at the training club.
I don't sell pups for 2500 dollars either. The breed is not doing real well as it is, so I don't see it as being any more of a disaster that already exists. If you take away the monetary value of a pup, then it is interesting how many of the trash breeders go away. People live very comfortable lives off of 2500 dollar pups. THAT is the hardest thing to change, but that is a different subject.
I have seen pups for sale from 1500 to 2500. No way that you could convince me that a pup is worth that much, not in todays economy, or any economy. Yet people charge this much, and that alone perpetuates irresponsible breeding. That is another discussion for sure.
by darylehret on 17 March 2010 - 04:03
"So, can we agree that the best workingline producers are not inbred tightly?"
As long as we can agree that the best workingline producers aren't very prepotent at it.
As long as we can agree that the best workingline producers aren't very prepotent at it.
by VomMarischal on 17 March 2010 - 04:03
GSDXephyr, you enter the dog as many times as it occurs in the pedigree, and it figures it out from there. Is that what you meant?
I went all the way to 8 generations if you count my unborn puppies as generation 1.
I went all the way to 8 generations if you count my unborn puppies as generation 1.
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