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by Kerschberger on 06 February 2010 - 19:02
www.vetdnacenter.com/fees.html
Had a very good conversation with their geneticist the other day and really, no matter what all the nay sayers say or don't want you to do, this test is a very reliable indicator for DM and any breeder should spend some money on this preventative disease. It pisses me off when some people call it a waste of money, when I have much feedback from folks who used the OFA test on their dog WITH DM and then tested POSITIVE. NEVER has the test failed sofar!
Sure some dogs positive with DM died of other causes before DM could set in. duuuuhhhhh
Anywho, I asked simply of the geneticist:
In Human DNA, whether we are african american, european, asian etc when tested for a human gene for parkinsons, the DNA MARKERS are the same right?
"YES they are"
In dog breeds this particular region where they found this gene, mutated or normal, the DNA is the same in ALL BREEDS I was explained. There is NO recessive backlash either. VETNDA set up a great graph with the outcomes, i cant find it on their site, but its on their brochure. I re-did it on my site. kerschberger.com/HealthDM.htm
The simplicity of this is that we are not knocking out a great dog out of the breeding circuit, but that we are breeding greater dogs for the future. I dont mind taking a step back, or two (but this is unnecessary as there are enough great dogs who tested NORMAL or Carrier) for the future of our breed.
(ok, marjorie can you pls let the people think through this for themselves and do not post a whole book again, we know you disagree, i respectfully disagree with you. it s free thinkers society after all)
Had a very good conversation with their geneticist the other day and really, no matter what all the nay sayers say or don't want you to do, this test is a very reliable indicator for DM and any breeder should spend some money on this preventative disease. It pisses me off when some people call it a waste of money, when I have much feedback from folks who used the OFA test on their dog WITH DM and then tested POSITIVE. NEVER has the test failed sofar!
Sure some dogs positive with DM died of other causes before DM could set in. duuuuhhhhh
Anywho, I asked simply of the geneticist:
In Human DNA, whether we are african american, european, asian etc when tested for a human gene for parkinsons, the DNA MARKERS are the same right?
"YES they are"
In dog breeds this particular region where they found this gene, mutated or normal, the DNA is the same in ALL BREEDS I was explained. There is NO recessive backlash either. VETNDA set up a great graph with the outcomes, i cant find it on their site, but its on their brochure. I re-did it on my site. kerschberger.com/HealthDM.htm
The simplicity of this is that we are not knocking out a great dog out of the breeding circuit, but that we are breeding greater dogs for the future. I dont mind taking a step back, or two (but this is unnecessary as there are enough great dogs who tested NORMAL or Carrier) for the future of our breed.
(ok, marjorie can you pls let the people think through this for themselves and do not post a whole book again, we know you disagree, i respectfully disagree with you. it s free thinkers society after all)
by marjorie on 06 February 2010 - 20:02
OK, Gina- I wont bother anyone with the facts- the facts are never necessary when making an informed decsion. People can just take your word, if you prefer. However, when the gene pool shrinks even more and the next generation of dogs show up with DM, because not enough time has elapsed to see if the claims they make pan out, I guess everyone can just deal with it then ;)
Marjorie
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group
Marjorie
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group
by marjorie on 06 February 2010 - 20:02
--- > why even bother to do a Jack Flash test on a dog expressing no clinical DM symtoms (at the appropriate age) and who has produced no progeny presenting with symptomatic DM?
Sorry, Louise- I missed this post. My dog Joss was quite ill and I had to euthanize him. Your post was made when Joss was ill and I wasnt keeping up with the board. The reason to do the test is for research purposes and to see what new knowledge can be gleaned from the test. It might also give you a heads up on the possibility of a problem down the line. There is much more information that needs to be discovered before one should rely on either test. This is in its infancy! No test, even the OFA test can predict which dogs will develop the disease, whether or not thay have the marker. No test is ever 100%, for sure. There will never be a cure found for DM or a cause, if people dont participate in research. Funding for research, in this economy is hard to come by. New things are discovered in science all the time, and submitting a Flash test allows access to blood samples which are able to not only be tested, now, but to be preserved and stored for future research. The more samples we get and the more we process them allows us to learn that much more about this disease in the GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG! Right now, tests are excellent for diagnostics, not for throwing dogs out of a gene pool. There hasnt been enough passage of time to know the true predictive value of not only this test, but the OFA test, as well.
Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group
Sorry, Louise- I missed this post. My dog Joss was quite ill and I had to euthanize him. Your post was made when Joss was ill and I wasnt keeping up with the board. The reason to do the test is for research purposes and to see what new knowledge can be gleaned from the test. It might also give you a heads up on the possibility of a problem down the line. There is much more information that needs to be discovered before one should rely on either test. This is in its infancy! No test, even the OFA test can predict which dogs will develop the disease, whether or not thay have the marker. No test is ever 100%, for sure. There will never be a cure found for DM or a cause, if people dont participate in research. Funding for research, in this economy is hard to come by. New things are discovered in science all the time, and submitting a Flash test allows access to blood samples which are able to not only be tested, now, but to be preserved and stored for future research. The more samples we get and the more we process them allows us to learn that much more about this disease in the GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG! Right now, tests are excellent for diagnostics, not for throwing dogs out of a gene pool. There hasnt been enough passage of time to know the true predictive value of not only this test, but the OFA test, as well.
Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group
by TIG on 09 February 2010 - 09:02
"continue to offer to test any dog (any breed, and mixed breeds) with clinical symptoms and a presumptive diagnosis of DM at no charge."
While this appears very altruistic there is one large glaring problem - it gives "predetermined" information to the tester. To be scientifically rigourous this type of testing must be "blind".
Just raises yet again another question re the scientic validity of such testing.
Majorie presents important information. Take the time to do your due diligence and use your brain. A clear from a test not developed for your breed means nothing.
Gina - we KNOW that the black color is transmitted differently in the GSD than most dog breeds. Does the genetist you talked to know that? Not everything in life has a simple or simplistic answer.
While this appears very altruistic there is one large glaring problem - it gives "predetermined" information to the tester. To be scientifically rigourous this type of testing must be "blind".
Just raises yet again another question re the scientic validity of such testing.
Majorie presents important information. Take the time to do your due diligence and use your brain. A clear from a test not developed for your breed means nothing.
Gina - we KNOW that the black color is transmitted differently in the GSD than most dog breeds. Does the genetist you talked to know that? Not everything in life has a simple or simplistic answer.
by TIG on 09 February 2010 - 10:02
I've raised this question before and I will keep raising it, because I don't get it - why the pass?
Historically scientific research was grant funded either privately or publically or in combination. A new discovery is made and the scientific community demanded it be published in a peer reviewed journal ( tho many today has shown that to be a specious guarantee of any kind of objectivity) and demanded sufficient statistical data ( and no - two or even 62 is not sufficient statistical data) and then demanded confirmation from repeated experiments by other researches and other labs to confirm it was not an "accidental" finding.
Today we have researchers who get very preliminary results or even in some cases rip off(I.e. steal) other researchers preliminary results and rush a "test" to the blind as a bat forgiving public - here the dog owner/breeding public saying come one come all we will identify for you if your dog carries xyz - of course for big bucks. There is no demand by the suckers buying these tests that the above normal scientific protocol has been followed - demanding statistically significant research and repeated confirmation of accuracy and percentage of accuracy.
This is from the Univ of Missouri site ( which OFA links to and refers you to). "We have found that dogs with 2 copies of the mutation (testing “affected”) are AT RISK for developing DM although many dogs that test “affected” remain free from symptoms. On the other hand, dogs that test “carrier” (one mutant copy and one normal copy) or “clear” (two normal copies) are highly unlikely to develop DM. " Now does this sound like they know what is causing this disease? Do they even know what disease they are testing for if "many dogs..remain free from symptoms (i.e. disease). Do you really think there is any predictive value to what they are selling? To make a pundit square telling you what the results of breeding A to B will be when you can NOT even clearly identify who will get the disease ( symptons confirmed by necropsy) is a joke and should be treated as such.
The reality is two fold here folks. One they have figured out how to get you to fund their research and two how to make a profit while doing so while promsing you pie in the sky that they can not deliver. If you want to be part of a legitimate research effort rather than lining pockets with your gold - send a contribution and blood samples and dna samples and do the Jack Flash test with the one guy who has had the interest of the GSD at heart for many many years - Dr. Clemmons.
We have the right and the obligation to demand rigourous scientific validity for any and all claims made. Our breed has enough genetic bottlenecks without throwing out the baby with the bathwater. We did this in the 60s with the Barden claims re wedge xraying and the ability to predict at 8, 12, 16 weeks the hip status of puppies. Entire litters were put down without any proof and certainly not any long term proof and longitudinal studies ( where that 8 wk old pup was xrayed at 6 mo, 12 mo. 2,3,.7 and 12 years to prove the accurancy of the claims being made). The successor to the Barden method ( Penn Hip which was rushed to the market based on 65 dogs of VARIED breeds) suffers the same lack of long term and generational proof. Its DI is a moving target as once again we ( and our dogs) pay for what is really research but is packaged and sold as fact.
By the way if this test is so "universal" as Gina will have it - why are GSDs not on the free testing list and why only dogs over 10 years.
Historically scientific research was grant funded either privately or publically or in combination. A new discovery is made and the scientific community demanded it be published in a peer reviewed journal ( tho many today has shown that to be a specious guarantee of any kind of objectivity) and demanded sufficient statistical data ( and no - two or even 62 is not sufficient statistical data) and then demanded confirmation from repeated experiments by other researches and other labs to confirm it was not an "accidental" finding.
Today we have researchers who get very preliminary results or even in some cases rip off(I.e. steal) other researchers preliminary results and rush a "test" to the blind as a bat forgiving public - here the dog owner/breeding public saying come one come all we will identify for you if your dog carries xyz - of course for big bucks. There is no demand by the suckers buying these tests that the above normal scientific protocol has been followed - demanding statistically significant research and repeated confirmation of accuracy and percentage of accuracy.
This is from the Univ of Missouri site ( which OFA links to and refers you to). "We have found that dogs with 2 copies of the mutation (testing “affected”) are AT RISK for developing DM although many dogs that test “affected” remain free from symptoms. On the other hand, dogs that test “carrier” (one mutant copy and one normal copy) or “clear” (two normal copies) are highly unlikely to develop DM. " Now does this sound like they know what is causing this disease? Do they even know what disease they are testing for if "many dogs..remain free from symptoms (i.e. disease). Do you really think there is any predictive value to what they are selling? To make a pundit square telling you what the results of breeding A to B will be when you can NOT even clearly identify who will get the disease ( symptons confirmed by necropsy) is a joke and should be treated as such.
The reality is two fold here folks. One they have figured out how to get you to fund their research and two how to make a profit while doing so while promsing you pie in the sky that they can not deliver. If you want to be part of a legitimate research effort rather than lining pockets with your gold - send a contribution and blood samples and dna samples and do the Jack Flash test with the one guy who has had the interest of the GSD at heart for many many years - Dr. Clemmons.
We have the right and the obligation to demand rigourous scientific validity for any and all claims made. Our breed has enough genetic bottlenecks without throwing out the baby with the bathwater. We did this in the 60s with the Barden claims re wedge xraying and the ability to predict at 8, 12, 16 weeks the hip status of puppies. Entire litters were put down without any proof and certainly not any long term proof and longitudinal studies ( where that 8 wk old pup was xrayed at 6 mo, 12 mo. 2,3,.7 and 12 years to prove the accurancy of the claims being made). The successor to the Barden method ( Penn Hip which was rushed to the market based on 65 dogs of VARIED breeds) suffers the same lack of long term and generational proof. Its DI is a moving target as once again we ( and our dogs) pay for what is really research but is packaged and sold as fact.
By the way if this test is so "universal" as Gina will have it - why are GSDs not on the free testing list and why only dogs over 10 years.
by Lief on 09 February 2010 - 11:02
The benefit of going through OFA I would think is thats its a large poweful not for profit organization ,If there is a variant found as there was a few years back with Optigens PRA test and it does happen I feel certain OFA will make good on it somehow. I could see people being skeptical if this were the first DNA test ever realeased on the market ? or if they had degrees in molecular science?? or the the test was ridiculously priced like Optigens tests?..that place is a ''for profit'' for sure! Anyhow bottomline if people want to be part of the solution they have got to get dogs tested and encourage everyone else to and then hold on to your chairs because the next decade will be laden with new DNA tests
by marjorie on 09 February 2010 - 23:02
But Lief- you have to test a dog for a disease the breed GETS! What good is it to test for something our breed doesnt develop? Shouldnt research be geared toward the breed of dog WE have?
Someone, ANYONE, give me proof of DM of the GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG ( OUR BREED) beginning anywhere other than the spine/hindquarters of the dog. With all the dna samples being collected, one would think that if the DM of the GSD was ALS, someone somewhere could come up with proof that DM can start in the front, or the throat, or the esophogus. ALS can start anywhere in the body, whereas the DM of the GSD always begins in the rear. Thats why it isnt ALS, but DM. Thats why the test results are so different- they are NOT the SAME disease! Doesnt this disrepancy give for pause for thought? Where is logic??????
Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group
Someone, ANYONE, give me proof of DM of the GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG ( OUR BREED) beginning anywhere other than the spine/hindquarters of the dog. With all the dna samples being collected, one would think that if the DM of the GSD was ALS, someone somewhere could come up with proof that DM can start in the front, or the throat, or the esophogus. ALS can start anywhere in the body, whereas the DM of the GSD always begins in the rear. Thats why it isnt ALS, but DM. Thats why the test results are so different- they are NOT the SAME disease! Doesnt this disrepancy give for pause for thought? Where is logic??????
Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group
by marjorie on 09 February 2010 - 23:02
What is really a joke to me is to believe that the sole cause of DM is associated ONLY with the SOD1 gene.
IMHO, it is nothing short of irresponsible to promote the notion that, breeding a n/n dog would be a clearance for breeding to eliminate DM. Why is this being promoted and preached as the gospel?? That would assume that there is only ONE gene or ONE marker that causes DM!!!! The OFA Test ONLY looks at the SOD1 gene- it doesnt
look at the dark dna (doesnt take it into account, at all) or imprinting!! It
doesnt look at any other genes or markers. Do you really in your heart of hearts
believe the cause of DM is as SIMPLISTIC as ONE gene or ONE marker????????
(Especially since many tested dont even have a change to that gene that have
ALS DM ,be it human or animal! So, how do you explain that????) Please say it isnt
so !If it was that simple, we would have not only had a cause but a cure for DM
by now!
Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group
IMHO, it is nothing short of irresponsible to promote the notion that, breeding a n/n dog would be a clearance for breeding to eliminate DM. Why is this being promoted and preached as the gospel?? That would assume that there is only ONE gene or ONE marker that causes DM!!!! The OFA Test ONLY looks at the SOD1 gene- it doesnt
look at the dark dna (doesnt take it into account, at all) or imprinting!! It
doesnt look at any other genes or markers. Do you really in your heart of hearts
believe the cause of DM is as SIMPLISTIC as ONE gene or ONE marker????????
(Especially since many tested dont even have a change to that gene that have
ALS DM ,be it human or animal! So, how do you explain that????) Please say it isnt
so !If it was that simple, we would have not only had a cause but a cure for DM
by now!
Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group
by marjorie on 09 February 2010 - 23:02
If you want to remove all dogs from the gene pool that carry the marker or the
change to the SOD1 you would need to remove approximately 75% of the GSDS from
the gene pool. Both tests are relatively new, and have certainly NOT been around
long enough to have followed tested dogs to see if they do or do not, in fact,
develop DM, or if their progeny does or does not develop DM. This research is in
its infancy. It would be insanity to remove dogs from a gene pool, at this point
in time, based on either test. The results of these actions could be disasterous
for the breed. With such a large percentage removed, other health problems would
become concentrated and the breed would implode :(
If 2 n/n dogs are bred, and the best prognosis is that is is UNLIKELY progeny would develop DM, how valid could this test be??????? If what they are saying is correct, then none of the progeny should develop DM- using the word *unlikely*
is very suspect, to me, in their own belief in what they are claiming. Sounds like they are hedging their bet!
Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group
change to the SOD1 you would need to remove approximately 75% of the GSDS from
the gene pool. Both tests are relatively new, and have certainly NOT been around
long enough to have followed tested dogs to see if they do or do not, in fact,
develop DM, or if their progeny does or does not develop DM. This research is in
its infancy. It would be insanity to remove dogs from a gene pool, at this point
in time, based on either test. The results of these actions could be disasterous
for the breed. With such a large percentage removed, other health problems would
become concentrated and the breed would implode :(
If 2 n/n dogs are bred, and the best prognosis is that is is UNLIKELY progeny would develop DM, how valid could this test be??????? If what they are saying is correct, then none of the progeny should develop DM- using the word *unlikely*
is very suspect, to me, in their own belief in what they are claiming. Sounds like they are hedging their bet!
Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group
by Justk9s on 07 March 2010 - 06:03
I tested all of mine thru OFA
My Shepherds are
Rookie-Clear
Centra-Clear
Tika-Clear
KIM
www.justk9s.com
My Shepherds are
Rookie-Clear
Centra-Clear
Tika-Clear
KIM
www.justk9s.com
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