Teaching the "fuss" - Page 4

happyday, congrats on the BH. You must be doing something right.

You did seem a little uptight.

Rik

Look:  Being concerned about whether the feet are "happy" or not is ass backwards.  No judge or serious trainer sees a dog prancing and says to him/herself "oh look happy feet, good enough for me".   Dogs in drive display a particular unmistakable intensity, which can't be faked by anything with the feet. IF a dog does not have the right drives all the prancing in the world won't hide it.   A dog must be in position and in drive to be correct - period.   So let's move away from this silly happy feet nonsense and discuss drives.

With a 6 month old puppy I would be guiding the pup into position with food, no compulsion and really  fun stuff that will not only  condition the puppy to be in correct position but will be the beginning of conditioning him to always work in drive during obedience.  I absolutely use compulsion in obedience but not until the dog understands the exercise and not with puppies. 

I also use compulsion to increase my adult dogs drive state.  For example if I am fusing and my dog is not correct in his intensity or attention,  I give him a sharp leash pop, and  he will respond by coming up in drive.  Why?  Because when he was old enough to handle a leash correction, if his attention strayed, now that he knew what he was supposed to do, I  would give him a leash pop, but it would immediately be followed by  verbal praise and a little play with tug or ball or whatever. So now a leash pop to my dog is not necessarily a bad thing.  But this is all about timing, reading your dog and pretty much impossible to fully explain over the Internet.  Plus my dogs are hard enough that they can handle corrections, they are resilient, they don't pout or become crestfallen.  But that again relates to knowing how much of a correction is appropriate for the dog in question and  goes back to reading the dog, timing and experience.  

My very best advise echoes what others have said.  No matter what   style of training you wish to use, there is no substitute for a good teacher/coach.  It truly does take a village to raise a schutz!!

Look at the excellent articles  and videos provided by Mohnweise.  Click on "training" on the left side, then click on the language you want, then click on "free heeling".   http://www.mohnwiese.de/

 

Well I agree that my dogs heeling derives from DRIVE! I was not trying to insinuate that "happyfeet" would hide or otherwise mask a dogs drive for the obedience. I was using it a a picture if you will, that when my dog is heeling, she is upbeat, and happy to be doing it, versus a dog that has been trained through compulsion! There is a very distinct difference between a dog that has been trained positively and one that has not been. I saw the video to which you refer to sueincc, and that is where I first got interested in this style of training. The dog has a prance to him and is upbeat during the OB, not flat with his tail and ears down. I used food and a clicker for foundation work, and slowly progressed from there. No compulsion or harshness to it.

Shrabe:  A great trainer I know always says "there are many ways to the top of the mountain".  There is no one way or style of training that is good for all dogs or all handlers.  Most trainers use a little bit of everything.   By the way just because a dog is trained with compulsion does not mean it is harsh and does automatically or even usually  result in a dog that is flat with tail and ears down. I have no problem with those who choose to train using  only one method or another,  I do have a problem with those who think their way is the only way.   In fact a dog who is broken down is a dog that was trained with too heavy of a hand, and no broken down dog is burning up any trial circuit.   Bad training is bad training - period. 

I think you and I are saying the same thing.  You and I both use compulsion but not  until the dog not only understands the exercize but is old enough to handle it, and of course, is the kind of dog who won't crumble under a correction, and the correction is appropriate, not heavy handed or unfair.

My main reason for my original post was I think some people think it's all about this  prancing rather than  drive state.  They think they can camoflauge drive state with animated prancing and they can't, which was really what was starting to bother me about this thread. 

Yes sueincc, I think we are saying the same thing. I have seen OB in drive and not, and I think a lot of that has to do with the handler not being able to tailor the training to the dog,, a mediocre dog can look great with the right handler, and a great dog can look horrible with a mediocre handler. I think your mind has to be open to knew possibilities, and be willing to try them out. You may succeed, you may not, but at least you tried for the dog. I have also seen a lot of people that seem to wear blinders with regard to dog training. You will NEVER know all there is to know about dog training. It is an ever evolving entity, and the minute you think you know it all is the day you need to stop!

How does one train the dog to prance without being in the right level of drive?  I guess I always thought that the pracing was because the dog WAS in drive.  My dogs prance when the drive is up, if they are not prancing, then they are flat and I want more drive (still very correct as far as position and such, but I want more prancing and more drive).

There were some very good suggestions on teaching the Fuss :-) Thanks for everyone who posted the methods that work for them. It's nice to be able to hear different methods that work for different dogs, and be able to tweak it, or use bits and pieces to find something that actually works, depending on the dogs temperment and responsiveness. (ugh is that a word?! It doesn't look right...lol)

I have a 2-1/2 year old male I am just starting to train in SchH and I have my hands FULL. Until now, he has bossed and bullied me without me even realizing it! Now that it has been pointed out to me I can see it. When he is in DRIVE mode, he balks at every command. (Of course he is my "good boy" at home lol) To put it in my TD's words he "punks" me in public...Because of this, I need to keep him on a leash.
Anyway, we started using the prong to get me some control and tons of praise when he obeys, and he is catching on very quickly. One thing I am really working hard on is my timing. I need to be quick in correction and praise.  Something I can offer to any other beginners like myself.

In November my husband is getting a female puppy and he will most likely start her training off leash, so it will be natural for her her when the time comes for her titling. Well, in theory it sounds good. I suppose we'll have to see what she is like when she gets here :-) Man, I wish I had started my male as a puppy!!! Hubby will have it easy LOL

Thanks again all for the great suggestions. There are lots of us on here who respect your opinions, Keep 'em coming

Stacy