The Need For Genetic Diversity. - Page 4

I have found this thread interesting; This is part of an article I did for another forum you may find interesting: This is the dog I mentioned in the other thread.
Alfe is by Zasko von Santamar whos sire Yasko is line bred on Cello/Hasel/Uran/Quando/Natz/Quana/Odin

in Alfes 5th gen you have Quando x2
6th gen:
Odin v Tannenmeise x3 (sire Quando)
Quando x1 , Quana x1, Uran x3, Palme x2
7th gen
Quando x4, Uran x5, Quina x3, Quana x2, Palme x6

Bear in mind Palme is dam to Quando, Quina, Quana sired by Xaver and Uran sired by Irk
Quando progeny Henning van Noort mated to Uran progeny Karina v d Teufelskanzel
Uran progeny Winni vom Huhnegrab mated to Quando
Quando progeny Odin von Tannenmeise mated to Uran progeny Anett v Noricum
Quana progeny Cello mated to Zilli von Batu whos grandsire is Uran, the progeny from this mating is then mated to Odin progeny.
Quana progeny Cello mated to Uran progeny Kissi vom Farbenspiel
Quina progeny Mark v h Beck mated to Uran progeny Folemarkens Quelle
Fedor (Grandsire Xando, Xaver sibbling) mated to Quina sired by Xaver.
and the list goes on, sorry if theres any spelling mistakes but you will know what dogs I mean, you wouldnt want to know the 8th gen its worse.
Also Xaver v Arminius 'Q' litter sire has his sibbling Xando and half sibblings Flora Konigsbruch, Axel v d Hainsterbach, Anschie v d Hainsterbach, Harro v Trienzbactal, within the 6/7th gens of Alfes ped, so plenty Lasso vi dal Sole.
This is why I advise people to look beyond the normal 5generation ped if you saw Alfes you wouldnt think there was inbreeding in it
then someone else with an Atopic dog gave this
4 - 5,5........................................... in VA1 Uran vom Wildsteiger Land

5,5 - 5........................................... in V Xaver von Arminius

5 - 5............................................. in V Lasso vom Wiedenbrücker Land

5,5,5 - 5......................................... in V Palme vom Wildsteiger Land

5 - 5............................................. in V Fee vom Weihertürchen

Then futher out the Q-litter shows. I haven't checked properly, but Mark is a Quina son and Enzo (Burg Aliso) is a Quando son

Makes you think doesnt it, the Germans have made the same mistake the English did only in English lines it caused, Cataracts, Epilepsy and Bone Tumors, whereas the German lines have caused Dwarfism, Atopic Dermititis, Heamangiosarconoma and a few other autoimmune conditions, when will people learn about inbreeding/linebreeding, you may fix type but you also end up causing genetic conditions.
A lot of the Dwarfs have Uran in their ped, Lasso von Neun Berg also produced Dwarfs he has both Uran and the Arminius Q litter in his ped.
The Masuta Piaute lines carry Heamangiocarsonoma, this line comes through Axel von der Hainsterbach, a Lasso di val Sole son, again same line as the Q litter.
A Heamangio ped male line:
Mark v h Beck his sire a Xando grandson
his dam is Quina is Xavier daughter, Xavier and Xando litter brothers.
Quina is also a Palme daughter.
Mark was mated to Linde Filsperle A Uran GrandDaughter through Yasso, Uran dam was Palme.
Wasko von Badboll was the result of the mating between Mark and Linde.
He was mated to Gilla vh Boombos daughter of Yasso( Uran Progeny)
and that is just the male line, although with this condition it appears the male line is more important.
EPI peds:
wont put the links to individual dogs but this is their breeding:
1)
* 5 - 5............................................. in V Anett vom Noricum
* 5 - 4............................................. in 1990/1991 VA1 (BSZS) Fanto vom Hirsche

I'll post the link here too as all readers here may not have seen it in the other thread.

Association of decreased heterozygostiy in the Major Histocompatibilty gene Complex (MHC) due to inbreeding, with autoimmune disease. http://www.alachealth.org/mhc.htm

Speaknow has already mentioned this further up the thread.

only just realised it didnt put all my thread;

EPI peds:
wont put the links to individual dogs but this is their breeding:
1)
* 5 - 5............................................. in V Anett vom Noricum
* 5 - 4............................................. in 1990/1991 VA1 (BSZS) Fanto vom Hirschel
* 5 - 5............................................. in VA10 Ica von der Wienerau
* 4 - 4............................................. in VA1 Jeck vom Noricum
* 5,5 - 5,5......................................... in VA6 Odin von Tannenmeise

2) Ica, Uran, Xavier, Odin etc as you know Ica by Axel von der Hainsterbach, who is a Lasso di Val Sole son same as the X litter( Xavier, Xando etc) Xavier sire of Q litter.
I think people should be looking to bringing more of the Mutz line through as all the dogs mentioned are through the Quanto line, the other so called pillar Canto died at 4yrs, his lines carried stomache problems.
Before the work show split all dogs were basically the same lines, but if you look in the work lines they have Mutz but not Quanto/Canto and are healthier for it.
 

Thanks Pod I did read Speaknow's posts but thought I would post as it backs up what he is saying and is from unrelated research to what his posts are from.

Oh I was referring to the MHC conection

Thanks for the info, very interesting.

Just call me one liner from now on.

Between speaknows science and pods vast knowledge of nature I think its only a matter of time before all our ill's are cured.   

Makes sense to breed with the aid of computers too.    Diversity is only a breath away.    Thank God for back yard breeders as that might end up being the only diversity left one day.    

Selection.............  Proper selection.    Can someone breed for the benefit of the animal and not the man.   

You can't alter the past but you can change the future if you can break away from the same o thinking and take some risk's.

Get out of line and walk a new path.

One liner find fork in the road.

pod wrote

I agree to a certain extent but diminishing the gene pool by using the selection criteria of man is now thought to lead to health problems associated with inbreeding.

key word here is THOUGHT

if you equal  wolf to wolf from another group  to wolf X mali crosses you basically agree with my first post , that you need genetic diversity in a breed , several separate lines with no common names in their total pedigree  for many many generations

again , linebreeding is not the problem , and yes , you need to outcross every now and then  , but  then you have to go back in your line again

but if you linebreed or outcross , if you make the wrong selections and or breedingchoises , you are out

a computerprogram will never work , or better said work correct , because every dog in a litter has a different genetic buildup , so in the various littermates of one linebred combination ,the genetic buildup will be different

it can give you a theoretical percentage , but that may be way off the real percentage in your dog

gain , linebreeding is not the problem , and yes , you need to outcross every now and then  , but  then you have to go back in your line again

Linebreeding is just a less severe form of inbreeding and I do agree again to a certain extent, outcrossing every now and then does bring back some heterozygosity to the individual but basing your breeding programme primarily on line/inbreeding has the effect of reducing the total gene pool of the breed.  If the majortiy of breeders follow this protocol, then you will have diminishing diversity within the breed as a whole with resultant less facility to outcross.

but if you linebreed or outcross , if you make the wrong selections and or breedingchoises , you are out

Less chance of making mistakes that affect the health and vigour of the dog when you outcross

 computerprogram will never work , or better said work correct , because every dog in a litter has a different genetic buildup , so in the various littermates of one linebred combination ,the genetic buildup will be different  it can give you a theoretical percentage , but that may be way off the real percentage in your dog

COI is an estimation of homozygosity in the individual based on ancestry and yes this is an estimation and the accuracy is reliant on number of generations included.  So vital to include as many as possible and the more generations used, the more the COI will increase.  It may not be totally accurate but it is the way we measure inbreeding and in the absence more accurate methods, it gives breeders a yardstick to estimate homozygosity.

Yes littermates do vary genetically but very unlikely there will be major differences in their percent homozygosity because there is no difference in their 'build up' of genetic material.  They are all inheriting from the same parental DNA which is a selection limited to two alleles per gene from each parent.  The preceding generations have very little influence on the liklihood of varying levels of homozygosity within the litter.

Great information Speaknow.  I'm particularly interested in the association between increase homozygosity and temperament/intelligence.  Do you have any more on this?

for every scientist who says yes , you will find two who will say no

try eberhard trumler  and also the beagle breedingprogram of hoechst germany by Strasser and Brunk

still havent seen any healthy totally outcrossed dogs/lines to convince me , but have seen healthy inbred lines

I dont want to end up this interesting discussion in a yes/no/yes/no conversation , so I agree to disagree

I really should do more homework before posting this, but I recall that a breed from Ireland (Irish terrier? Irish waterdog?) has virtually no inheritable genetic defects in its lines. That's because the breed has never been popular. As soon as a breed becomes popular, breeders set on making a profit breed everything they can get their hands on, and the number of defects soars.

I have got a book on picking the perfect dog, which lists the common problems for each breed, and I'll check into this a bit more carefully when I have the time, and give you the proper name of the breed I'm thinking about.